Active Users:400 Time:13/09/2025 03:00:09 PM
In Washington, one must always present the APPEARANCE of integrity... Joel Send a noteboard - 20/08/2010 02:40:24 PM
I think a big part of the problem is he jumped in and commented on one part of the issue but is refusing to comment on the other. If he is not willing to give his opinion on the wisdom of building a mosque there he should have stayed of it all together since that is the key issue to a lot of people. Most Americans agree that we have to let them build the mosque there but most don’t like the idea.

At least with Bush and Clinton you knew where they stood. Obama seems to want to hedge and nuance any position he feels vulnerable on. It is hard to convince people you will stand by your convictions if don't first convince them you possess
those convictions.

particularly if the genuine article is not at ones disposal. Clinton and Bush could be at least as duplicitous as any other politician, they were just (usually) very good at LOOKING sincere. Still, we're talking about two men proven to have lied to the American publics face for their own purposes, something I don't recall either ever admitting despite airtight evidence. You want integrity, go talk to Carter; he's the last American President I can't prove for a fact lied to the entire nation.

Anyway, Obama was quite clear and precise in his words and intent; the problem is that people on both sides of the issue have filled in the blanks as they wished. Really, no government official should be making any personal statements about the mosque ITSELF, because that ignores the spirit if not the letter of the First Amendment: The moment an elected official weighs in on whether the mosque SHOULD (rather than CAN) be built, it has the effect of either tacit government condemnation or endorsement. His initial comment was explicitly on the Constitutional aspect, to which his personal feelings about the mosque are (or should be) irrelevant. What was his second comment?

"'I was not commenting, and I will not comment, on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there,' he said the morning after he commented on the wisdom of making a decision to put a mosque there. 'I was commenting very specifically on the right people have that dates back to our founding. That’s what our country is about.'"

If Ms. Dowd thinks that's somehow "unclear" or at odds with his initial statement perhaps it's because she more often seems a talking head than a journalist. I'm really sorry that instead of stating the positions of pundits and demagogues from both sides Obama stated the position of the US Constitution, but my sympathy is more with the nation that the partisans claiming to represent what they don't understand. Obamas mistake, to the extent that he made one (and he didn't "create" this story nationally) was not in what he said but in the fact he said anything at all. Though there is a school of thought (likely the one to which Obama subscribes) that says that as the hue and cry around the country rose, maybe someone NEEDED to remind us of what America means, and who better than the President?

Personally, I agree he should've left it alone, though as I've intermittently watched the drama play out I've become increasingly unsure of that. Whether or not he made a statement though, he had no business making one in favor of or against the mosque, and thank God he at least had sense enough to know that even if the pundits (who aren't exactly overflowing with sense) lack or choose to ignore that knowledge. You and I have the luxury of publicly expressing our feelings about the mosque itself because no one will mistake them for official US policy.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
An amusing column on the NYC mosque by Maureen Dowd.... - 20/08/2010 12:33:27 AM 1484 Views
wow, that was an interesting read - 20/08/2010 02:03:52 AM 854 Views
Gingrich thinks he is a deep thinker? - 20/08/2010 09:42:15 AM 698 Views
We've been through this, too, haven't we? - 20/08/2010 10:12:15 AM 992 Views
He makes historical references as often as possible, or at least in pretty much everything I've seen - 20/08/2010 12:37:02 PM 829 Views
As he was a history professor and writes histories and alternate histories, this is not surprising - 20/08/2010 05:33:48 PM 1000 Views
I'm aware of that - 20/08/2010 11:47:32 PM 726 Views
Re: I'm aware of that - 21/08/2010 12:40:29 AM 1009 Views
Re: I'm aware of that - 21/08/2010 01:19:37 AM 872 Views
Re: I'm aware of that - 21/08/2010 01:59:48 AM 755 Views
Conservatives love Rome. I don't know why. - 21/08/2010 01:20:27 AM 806 Views
Rome was more often than not governed by aristocrats and did, after all, invent the republic. - 21/08/2010 04:50:53 PM 1135 Views
"One man, one vote" always reminds me of Pratchett - 21/08/2010 05:03:35 PM 782 Views
Me too *NM* - 21/08/2010 06:53:22 PM 490 Views
Except there doesn't seem to be any conflict between either position. - 20/08/2010 10:06:20 AM 948 Views
When has logical consistency trumped politics? *NM* - 20/08/2010 01:50:55 PM 396 Views
True, but it does mean there's no "there" there. - 20/08/2010 02:41:49 PM 766 Views
He has to learn he needs to be crystal clear on sensitive issues - 20/08/2010 02:03:43 PM 1005 Views
In Washington, one must always present the APPEARANCE of integrity... - 20/08/2010 02:40:24 PM 893 Views
Clinton lied about the BJ but what is your airtight proof that Bush lied? - 20/08/2010 07:44:53 PM 962 Views
Ask and ye shall receive: - 21/08/2010 06:42:50 PM 1133 Views
This is a bit along the lines of what I have been thinking. - 20/08/2010 07:49:15 PM 980 Views
that sort of illustrates the problem - 20/08/2010 08:56:42 PM 827 Views
It does - 22/08/2010 04:56:54 PM 741 Views
Can't find anything now on the context of the second statement. - 21/08/2010 05:05:51 PM 868 Views
I didn't see the problem either. He was simply stating the obvious. - 21/08/2010 01:39:44 AM 716 Views
maybe - 21/08/2010 02:49:40 AM 965 Views
Wow that is probably the best Dowd column I have ever read - 21/08/2010 01:35:36 AM 744 Views
Yes, his backtracking was quite pussy-ish. *NM* - 21/08/2010 04:00:31 AM 355 Views
How did he "backtrack" exactly? - 21/08/2010 04:35:33 PM 1025 Views
c'mon Joel. are you being intentionally thick? - 21/08/2010 05:02:27 PM 1044 Views
Having read those quotes I don't think he was backtracking on anything. (With link to speech) - 22/08/2010 06:27:06 AM 999 Views
*NM* - 22/08/2010 01:37:23 PM 395 Views
did you take into your consideration - 22/08/2010 03:50:59 PM 741 Views
I can't imagine why they would express concern over it. It wasn't controversial. That is on them - 22/08/2010 03:58:32 PM 936 Views
that would be - 22/08/2010 04:02:08 PM 1026 Views
But quote B just reiterated what he said the first time. - 22/08/2010 04:13:21 PM 858 Views
I agree he is not backtracking - 22/08/2010 06:49:36 PM 843 Views
I agree with you, Joel and Tash on this one. - 22/08/2010 07:52:34 PM 916 Views
While we're picking sides, I'm with Mook and Roland. - 22/08/2010 08:20:11 PM 772 Views
I never fail to be impressed with your intelligence - 22/08/2010 08:25:11 PM 921 Views
I like how he's got rhetorical talents when it works - 22/08/2010 08:32:15 PM 794 Views
nope just human *NM* - 22/08/2010 08:37:17 PM 422 Views
that's not what Paul just said. - 22/08/2010 08:42:24 PM 857 Views
He couldn't stay out, no. - 22/08/2010 08:56:47 PM 895 Views
I don't want to argue with you on a Sunday, my religion says I have to relax. - 22/08/2010 09:03:54 PM 911 Views
key word: seem - 22/08/2010 09:06:40 PM 834 Views
I was only using that term for you guys. I don't feel like beating you with a rolling pin until you - 22/08/2010 09:14:39 PM 732 Views
good thing - 22/08/2010 09:39:52 PM 1131 Views
he could have and should have stayed out - 22/08/2010 09:57:57 PM 869 Views
I think he's certainly got rhetoric talents... - 22/08/2010 08:54:11 PM 1293 Views
You don't really seem like you're taking a side to me. - 22/08/2010 09:14:02 PM 951 Views
I'm not even taking the time to comment on something so obvious as what he did. *NM* - 22/08/2010 02:53:10 AM 478 Views
Except, of course, that you just did. - 22/08/2010 12:30:00 PM 868 Views
Joel - 22/08/2010 05:37:45 AM 1046 Views
That last line was golden. *NM* - 22/08/2010 05:40:56 AM 448 Views
His phrasing in the first speech implied that it was a bad idea. But legally they have the right. - 22/08/2010 06:32:59 AM 965 Views
nonsense - 22/08/2010 03:39:30 PM 909 Views
I still don't see how it can be misinterpreted except by intent by the listener. - 22/08/2010 04:08:52 PM 884 Views
so we have reached the point of no return... - 22/08/2010 04:18:46 PM 893 Views
In your case it would have to be number 2. - 22/08/2010 07:38:20 PM 867 Views
ah, but I have no agenda here... - 22/08/2010 07:41:59 PM 699 Views
lol.<3 - 22/08/2010 08:49:35 PM 876 Views
that it is... - 22/08/2010 08:57:05 PM 872 Views
Tash you are very much a fair person in this world - 22/08/2010 08:34:38 PM 972 Views
Or there is another option: 3) He was using tact. - 22/08/2010 09:01:49 PM 904 Views
On the off chance that this: - 23/08/2010 12:38:48 AM 1064 Views
I do remember your reply... - 23/08/2010 02:57:29 AM 1294 Views
Lies, prevarication and deceit again, eh? - 22/08/2010 01:17:45 PM 1358 Views
that was a decent explanation.... - 22/08/2010 05:18:18 PM 812 Views
Thanks. - 22/08/2010 05:41:28 PM 872 Views
I do feel bad for them - 22/08/2010 08:40:36 PM 767 Views
Re: Joel - 22/08/2010 07:53:51 PM 910 Views
Agreed. *NM* - 22/08/2010 08:25:38 PM 549 Views

Reply to Message