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See Dreaded Anomaly's reply below. Camilla Send a noteboard - 21/10/2010 03:03:02 PM
Well, she seems to do well in front of cameras, but in front of law students?

Perhaps just when all she has to do is smile and repeat the lines she was taught earlier? She was caught out by why should be fairly basic knowledge even if the crowd aren't law students.

It would not be as noticeable if she were talking only to tea party activists, methinks. We would still be mocking her, but she would not have had the painful moment of misjudging her audience, which is the part that has me blushing on her behalf here.

Yes, separation of church and state is a settled matter; no, it is NOT in the Constitution. I assume by this point you've read the text at least once or twice and saw the non-establishment clause, and that's great; it means we can't have a state religion, and we can't tell people how to practice religion. It does not mean we can't have religion in government, per se; it means a religious basis is not, in itself, a legitimate legislative one. That's not to say laws against murder and rape are unacceptable because they also happen to appear in most religious texts, or even because the primary motivation of the men who passed that legislation was a moral and in most cases deeply religious one. The laws are good and valid in themselves, precisely due to their operation in a larger than religious sphere. How well they serve that role is the real test of the law, and the Constitutional test here is that it do so without promoting or favoring one or more religions over one or more others.

Part of the religious objection today is the impression the First Amendment is being used in various ways to actively marginalize religious thought, and when that includes the government it is itself a serious First Amendment violation. There's a feeling, to put it in British terms, that we'll soon have an "Anti-Test Act" whereby politicians will have to renounce all religious opinion or be declared unfit for office. "Jacobin" has always had a pejorative connotation in America, even with men like Jefferson and Madison; the closest thing we had to a Robespierre sympathizer like Fox was Thomas Paine, whom the French almost executed for his trouble (and supposedly had a deathbed conversion.)

Essentially, they're making fun of her for bringing up a valid argument they long ago won, but they're disingenuously pretending the point itself is invalid and ignorant when they know very well that it's not.
*MySmiley*
structured procrastinator
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"Where in the Constitution is separation of church and state?" - 20/10/2010 12:33:05 AM 875 Views
You don't want her? - 20/10/2010 01:21:20 AM 436 Views
I have decided for the first time in my life to not vote this year. - 20/10/2010 01:27:13 AM 314 Views
Now there's an answer - 20/10/2010 01:47:28 AM 409 Views
Voting isn't the only way to contribute *NM* - 20/10/2010 02:42:10 AM 133 Views
And most of those posts are a guess at best. - 20/10/2010 03:02:04 AM 286 Views
Maybe you shouldn't be guessing then? - 20/10/2010 06:00:02 AM 277 Views
Issac has a point. - 20/10/2010 02:14:28 AM 291 Views
Can you not spoil your ballot? - 20/10/2010 10:19:54 AM 271 Views
Depends where you live. - 20/10/2010 01:50:30 PM 327 Views
I don't think so but an intentional no vote is just as valid as voting IMHO. *NM* - 21/10/2010 02:45:35 AM 121 Views
The difference is when they look at statistics - 21/10/2010 10:49:48 AM 272 Views
Exactly. - 21/10/2010 02:02:46 PM 386 Views
When you don't vote the bad guys win. That simple. - 20/10/2010 01:53:23 PM 398 Views
An intentional NO vote is just as valid as voting. - 21/10/2010 02:46:58 AM 265 Views
Apart from the fact there's no record of it whatsoever, yes. - 21/10/2010 01:37:46 PM 273 Views
She is a buffoon of course. But what I am speechless about is... - 20/10/2010 01:25:43 AM 387 Views
Re: She is a buffoon of course. But what I am speechless about is... - 20/10/2010 01:35:48 AM 313 Views
Re: (meant to be under the main thread, but I can't move it) - 20/10/2010 02:42:23 AM 285 Views
It's a valid argument. - 21/10/2010 03:26:46 PM 262 Views
i feel kinda bad for her - 20/10/2010 03:31:03 AM 311 Views
What is odd about this is that everyone is used to the 'separation' idea that they don't bother to - 20/10/2010 06:44:48 AM 315 Views
Or, you know, the letters on the topic written by the people who drafted the Constitution *NM* - 20/10/2010 07:04:47 AM 162 Views
Those aren't the Constitution though. - 20/10/2010 12:39:41 PM 298 Views
which show they considered it but did not include it *NM* - 20/10/2010 06:14:37 PM 125 Views
Yep, this. *NM* - 20/10/2010 07:40:19 PM 149 Views
Personally, I think that's splitting hairs. *NM* - 20/10/2010 09:20:28 PM 121 Views
a direct reading is splitting hairs? - 20/10/2010 09:25:14 PM 271 Views
That's what lawyers like the Founding Fathers do. - 21/10/2010 02:56:36 PM 277 Views
I actually felt bad for her - 20/10/2010 10:46:57 AM 283 Views
She's right. - 20/10/2010 12:27:55 PM 412 Views
I'm less concerned about what she said than why she said it. *NM* - 20/10/2010 01:32:38 PM 217 Views
It is on youtube - 20/10/2010 02:40:12 PM 308 Views
Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 03:03:30 PM 315 Views
Re: Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 03:32:02 PM 281 Views
Re: Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 03:36:48 PM 266 Views
Re: Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 03:53:46 PM 259 Views
Re: Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 04:01:49 PM 350 Views
Re: Jesus Christ - 20/10/2010 05:12:28 PM 258 Views
Because she knew her audience, she expected them to know better, not be deliberately obtuse. - 21/10/2010 02:31:19 PM 290 Views
See Dreaded Anomaly's reply below. - 21/10/2010 03:03:02 PM 315 Views
Done. - 21/10/2010 04:50:52 PM 263 Views
Yet another reason you aren't a lawyer. *NM* - 21/10/2010 05:09:16 PM 103 Views
Because I don't accept arguments I consider unproven? - 21/10/2010 05:23:52 PM 317 Views
I see we have replaced the PDS with ODS - 20/10/2010 03:05:58 PM 260 Views
It only depends on just how finely one wants to split hairs. - 20/10/2010 04:02:28 PM 266 Views
no it depends how far you want to stretch the Constitution to say things it doesn't say - 20/10/2010 04:19:04 PM 263 Views
No it does not show that. - 21/10/2010 02:58:32 AM 249 Views
It doesn't matter what some of them may have wanted - 21/10/2010 02:54:54 PM 243 Views
Treaty of Tripoli through the Establishment clause fairly explicitly affirms this. Sorry. *NM* - 21/10/2010 03:56:09 AM 108 Views
OK which clause allows for amending the Constitution by treaty? I can't seem to find it *NM* - 21/10/2010 02:59:01 PM 112 Views
Supremacy clause, not establishment clause. My mistake. - 21/10/2010 05:07:18 PM 256 Views
Sorry, but the Treaty of Tripolis relevant section still seems like commentary. - 21/10/2010 05:18:00 PM 236 Views
This is quickly becoming infuriating. - 22/10/2010 01:41:18 AM 237 Views
No, it's part of the treaty. - 22/10/2010 02:02:42 AM 258 Views
no your mistake was misreading the clause - 21/10/2010 05:48:52 PM 247 Views
Very difficult not to lose my temper here. - 22/10/2010 01:39:21 AM 255 Views
Then you should argue it violate a treaty with a country that no longer exist - 22/10/2010 02:03:32 PM 238 Views
Noticed that, too, did you? - 22/10/2010 08:40:09 PM 349 Views
She's so... bewildered! - 20/10/2010 06:40:04 PM 247 Views
that is what I think when I read a lot of the responses here - 20/10/2010 07:44:40 PM 255 Views
Because the logical conclusion is obvious. - 21/10/2010 03:08:39 AM 246 Views
I think it is logical that it means what is say not want some want it to say - 21/10/2010 03:02:08 PM 245 Views
Nonsense. The nature of the nation was already changing in the first generation. - 22/10/2010 12:35:26 AM 341 Views
but it is an impulse that should be limited - 22/10/2010 06:05:10 PM 245 Views
For those who think O'Donnell is correct, even on a technicality: - 20/10/2010 10:49:40 PM 290 Views
exactly - 21/10/2010 03:26:00 AM 280 Views
She started out alright - 21/10/2010 02:32:01 PM 248 Views
or she wasn't really paying attnetion to him and was still trying to argue her first point - 21/10/2010 03:24:06 PM 392 Views
Lol. Bush-League. - 21/10/2010 04:39:43 PM 243 Views
at leas thten the haters were hating someone who mattered *NM* - 21/10/2010 05:50:03 PM 113 Views

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