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Fair enough. I'm just a little overzealous with what I see as infringements on civil liberties. Ghavrel Send a noteboard - 15/09/2009 01:14:48 AM
Actually that is not how it is. Public schools do not get to make up rules about what people can or can't wear. The supreme court has ruled on this repeatedly. Neither public instituions or even private franchise have the right to ban things without question, many a lawsuit - quite a few of which have been successful - have challenged these sorts of things. Schools can limit certain rights in the name of security, disruption, etc. This isn't carte blanche, there are some pretty solid guidelines about it. It as to be reasonable and even-handed, or close to it, or the ACLU wil show up.


The Supreme Court has become increasingly permissive of stupid rules. Remember Morse v. Frederick (BONG HITS 4 JESUS)? Granted, that was drug-related, but it was still ridiculously stupid, especially since it wasn't on school property. And Bethel School District v. Fraser let schools ban sexual innuendo.


In so far as it shows that right or wrong we still have no prob running cases like this all the way to the supreme court, so it encourages schools to be fairly careful about applying such rules. Let's keep in mind that Frederick ended up getting $45,000 from the school plus other stuff. Silly sign anyway.

My main objection against Frederick was the idea that because he was accross the street it was just fine, which is so much BS. Under that rationale a student could call the school from home and leave nasty messages on the machine, or use a bullhorn to scream obscenities, it would seem to fall under the same rationale as why you can't open up a porn shop across the road either, or why your neighbors can call the cops on you for blasting your stereo in your house. Though honestly I think the school seriously over-reacted and the court made a real iffy decision.

Fraser's speech was, honestly, another real borderliner, primarily IMO because if a teacher had said that crap we'd have fired them so quick they'd have bounced when they hit the pavement. Personally I thought it was a amateurish attempt at humor, and that the school went a tad overboard, but cases like these don't bug me much because I see them as pretty healthy. When our free speech rights are gettting 'tread on' by such horriblly oppresive things as a two day suspension and a ban on delivering a graduation address, I don't feel too worried. Had I been the prinicipal on that one I think I'd have just said "Nice speech, we thought it was so good we sent a copy to your mother so she could she what a great writer you are." and left it at that. Actually that's BS, as a long-winded SOB I'd probably have giving him a 20 minute lecture on the sorts of public figures who have been summarily dropped into the gaping political garbage chute because of some silly quip they or one of their supporters gave that turned out not to be as funny as they thought it was.

Of course, if I had my way we wouldn't bother having school elections, since it wastes much time and gives people the impression that they should have any say, as a student and minor with free tuition, in how things get run. I think it also tends to leave the impression that democratic processes result in electing powerless token figureheads whose qualification for office is that they are popular, which of course not how things actually work, or are supposed to, and I suspect causes a fair amount of the jaded and cynical attitude towards elections that end sup as something of a self-fullfilling prophecy... but I digress :)

I'd love to think that the Tinker precedent still holds, but I really don't think it does any more.


I think it holds fairly well. Note that while the schools won, they amounted to incredibly pyhrric victories that are more likely to encourage schools to be fairly reluctant to apply the rules to anything but very necessary cases, which is more or less what I think we want. Two very minor speedbumps in a pretty solid policy that's been in place four around forty years. Not too bad.
"We feel safe when we read what we recognise, what does not challenge our way of thinking.... a steady acceptance of pre-arranged patterns leads to the inability to question what we are told."
~Camilla

Ghavrel is Ghavrel is Ghavrel

*MySmiley*

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Islam is of the Devil - 06/09/2009 03:30:51 AM 1699 Views
I swear, the levels of crazy are just increasing these days. - 06/09/2009 06:04:19 AM 969 Views
People are stupid. - 06/09/2009 06:25:42 AM 1122 Views
This statement got me: - 06/09/2009 06:30:16 AM 1359 Views
Re: This statement got me: - 06/09/2009 07:20:17 AM 957 Views
What you say about those places may be true - 06/09/2009 02:16:30 PM 964 Views
Regardless... - 07/09/2009 04:34:48 AM 913 Views
Re: Regardless... - 07/09/2009 06:10:18 AM 1023 Views
I'm not advocating the killing of Muslims. - 08/09/2009 07:11:13 PM 1040 Views
Re: I'm not advocating the killing of Muslims. - 08/09/2009 10:15:55 PM 1017 Views
Okay... - 09/09/2009 04:04:29 PM 942 Views
You are free to wear offensive clothing - 08/09/2009 08:13:18 PM 1001 Views
There is a difference between hatred and truth. - 09/09/2009 04:04:02 PM 933 Views
You do know christans have done that as well don't you? - 09/09/2009 06:04:28 PM 1004 Views
The difference is... - 09/09/2009 06:16:13 PM 908 Views
really have you actaully read the Qur'an - 09/09/2009 06:33:38 PM 983 Views
there are some unsavory passages, and he knows it. - 09/09/2009 06:46:59 PM 974 Views
Acrually No I don't. - 09/09/2009 07:52:19 PM 850 Views
Someone should have told Jesus the OT was void - 09/09/2009 10:31:39 PM 983 Views
Jesus was the one who voided it. - 10/09/2009 12:25:18 AM 990 Views
so he was lying when he said he didn't? - 10/09/2009 03:27:14 AM 1053 Views
Christ never said that. - 10/09/2009 02:14:53 PM 955 Views
Logicaly, this is a stupid post. - 06/09/2009 03:58:43 PM 1001 Views
+1 *NM* - 06/09/2009 08:56:02 PM 453 Views
+2 *NM* - 06/09/2009 10:04:34 PM 425 Views
+3 *NM* - 06/09/2009 10:36:48 PM 438 Views
As an Englishman, why are you even posting in this thread then? *NM* - 07/09/2009 02:49:22 AM 467 Views
Because I can. - 07/09/2009 10:15:57 AM 1023 Views
So can he. - 07/09/2009 07:54:56 PM 922 Views
Yes - 08/09/2009 05:59:24 AM 975 Views
It means a lot in context to the situation - 08/09/2009 07:14:50 PM 1049 Views
No, it does not. - 08/09/2009 07:20:49 PM 1012 Views
So now you can tell me what I can and can't do with my children? - 08/09/2009 11:31:16 PM 1023 Views
I can tell you what you can't make your children do in school. - 08/09/2009 11:59:21 PM 971 Views
Re: I can tell you what you can't make your children do in school. - 09/09/2009 04:10:19 PM 1040 Views
Re: I can tell you what you can't make your children do in school. - 09/09/2009 04:27:32 PM 1089 Views
Define "disruptive". - 09/09/2009 06:19:36 PM 969 Views
No. *NM* - 09/09/2009 06:26:43 PM 472 Views
Well said *NM* - 09/09/2009 06:55:22 PM 443 Views
Ooh, look, I'm being baited. - 09/09/2009 07:59:28 PM 933 Views
Then your argument has no merit. *NM* - 09/09/2009 07:52:47 PM 438 Views
you are making no sense - 08/09/2009 11:35:12 AM 1016 Views
Quite a bit. - 07/09/2009 04:31:59 AM 980 Views
Luke 6:31 *NM* - 07/09/2009 08:41:54 PM 510 Views
That applies to them as well. *NM* - 08/09/2009 07:08:55 PM 352 Views
The thing I think you are missing... - 06/09/2009 07:18:45 PM 1061 Views
Wait, what? - 06/09/2009 08:29:14 PM 1034 Views
I... kinda have to agree with Ghav, there. - 06/09/2009 10:39:28 PM 1014 Views
Yeah, what you said! - 06/09/2009 11:51:19 PM 1092 Views
don't make me get all vulcan on you. *NM* - 07/09/2009 06:13:18 AM 427 Views
Wrong. - 07/09/2009 04:36:49 AM 1007 Views
That is why America is different than those countries. Duh. *NM* - 06/09/2009 07:58:53 PM 636 Views
Because in America - 07/09/2009 04:35:24 AM 1080 Views
Re: Because in America - 07/09/2009 06:16:05 AM 927 Views
And... - 08/09/2009 07:15:49 PM 933 Views
Jesus, you are a real piece of work. Moron. *NM* - 07/09/2009 11:52:02 PM 333 Views
I don't think I understand your basic reasoning. You can't be saying what it sounds like. - 08/09/2009 01:40:42 AM 997 Views
Go, Tash, go! - 08/09/2009 05:52:01 AM 959 Views
Re: I don't think I understand your basic reasoning. You can't be saying what it sounds like. - 08/09/2009 07:18:00 PM 960 Views
"Their government" is the American government. *NM* - 08/09/2009 07:36:27 PM 405 Views
That is a concept many people can't seem to grasp *NM* - 08/09/2009 08:14:50 PM 416 Views
The elf has a point. *NM* - 08/09/2009 10:18:26 PM 475 Views
And yet I don't see CAIR.. - 09/09/2009 04:07:05 PM 912 Views
Why on earth should it? - 09/09/2009 05:14:30 PM 968 Views
Because... - 09/09/2009 06:25:41 PM 1025 Views
Re: Because... - 09/09/2009 07:06:24 PM 1209 Views
Really? - 08/09/2009 08:02:42 PM 902 Views
Re: Really? - 09/09/2009 12:11:36 AM 961 Views
Well it's not about whether it scans right to you. - 09/09/2009 04:06:06 PM 862 Views
Oh, I was just clarifying. - 09/09/2009 06:05:49 PM 920 Views
Re: I don't think I understand your basic reasoning. You can't be saying what it sounds like. - 08/09/2009 11:49:48 PM 1028 Views
Failed edit. *NM* - 08/09/2009 11:50:50 PM 447 Views
Exactly. *NM* - 09/09/2009 12:12:52 AM 450 Views
I'm appalled that this was even worthy of note - 06/09/2009 06:46:58 AM 1005 Views
Re: I'm appalled that this was even worthy of note - 06/09/2009 07:22:59 AM 1144 Views
It didn't infringe on the First Amendment rights of others. - 06/09/2009 07:28:35 AM 976 Views
Er? You misunderstand the law quite a lot there - 06/09/2009 11:06:04 AM 980 Views
I believe the rest of the Church has done a horrible job explaining... - 06/09/2009 08:02:25 PM 973 Views
When will people learn tolerance/=support...? - 06/09/2009 12:30:23 PM 1046 Views
Well said *NM* - 06/09/2009 12:50:11 PM 449 Views
The sad thing is ou know it is the parents driving it all - 06/09/2009 02:37:08 PM 1100 Views
The parents are disgusting idiots - 06/09/2009 03:57:17 PM 993 Views
Fundamentalist nutjobs. Sheesh! *NM* - 06/09/2009 07:57:09 PM 525 Views
The appropriate punishment... - 07/09/2009 06:03:25 AM 998 Views
Punishment for what? - 07/09/2009 09:51:57 AM 1012 Views
When did I say anything about a law? - 07/09/2009 10:48:09 AM 976 Views
Since were talking about the law, not your opinion of right an wrong, it's sort of a default - 09/09/2009 05:01:08 PM 951 Views
Eh... I wish you were right, but I don't think you are. - 10/09/2009 03:50:18 AM 1052 Views
Morse isn't a bad example - 10/09/2009 11:23:32 AM 1031 Views
Fair enough. I'm just a little overzealous with what I see as infringements on civil liberties. - 15/09/2009 01:14:48 AM 1256 Views
That's the key point so many forget: - 07/09/2009 11:42:12 PM 852 Views
It's not that they forget, they never 'get' to begin with - 09/09/2009 07:18:09 PM 1028 Views
No, that's pretty much it. - 10/09/2009 03:42:25 AM 1081 Views
You're right. - 14/09/2009 11:11:38 AM 1160 Views
If I understand you - 14/09/2009 03:05:39 PM 999 Views
Yes, that was it - 14/09/2009 04:17:45 PM 1158 Views

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