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There are two points: Joel Send a noteboard - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM
but so far the majority of your posts rely on something that to my knowledge has yet to be proven. It is as of now undetermined what, if any, affect Palin etc had on Loughner's choosing targets.

Am I correct in this assumption?

1) Because Giffords originated the suggestion that Palins use of crosshairs on her district endangered her, calling that suggestion "blood libel" accuses Giffords of it first and foremost, whether or not Palin intended that.

2) While it's unlikely that Loughner viewed that image (which is only relevant because Giffords mentioned it prior to an attack on her) it's at least as unlikely he was completely unaware of two solid years of paranoid hatefilled extremism directed at all liberals (and Giffords certainly qualifies) by all the far right demagogues, of which Palin is one.

That doesn't make Palin entirely or even largely responsible for what one nut with a gun decided to do, but to say all her inflammatory rhetoric, including but limited to the crosshairs, is wholly separate from his actions assumes he's been living under a rock for two years, only emerging occasionally for long enough to harass Gabrielle Giffords and ultimately gun down 19 people. The mere fact that he was on FB and MySpace makes it incredibly dubious he was unaware of all the militant extremist rhetoric from the far right, and anyone with his inclinations would've found encouragement there. Sarah Palin is only one of many far right demagogues, and the crosshairs imagery only one of many provocative, inflammatory and militant examples from her; regardless, Jared Loughner pulled the trigger (though had federal background checks required under the Brady Bill still existed his documented history of criminality and mental instability would've made that nigh impossible) and bears the lions share of the guilt, to say the least. HOWEVER, it's ludicrous to suggest the two solid years of incitement by demagogues didn't contribute, even though it's impossible to say how much. If you run around for years demanding unrestricted gun right and shouting, "death to n----rs!" you may not pull the trigger, but when a fellow gun nut and racist DOES you bare some of the blame. It would take a lot of cheek to accuse one of the people he shoots of libel for saying so.

Hope that helps.
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OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. Joel - 16/01/2011 12:18:22 PM 2079 Views
Why are they calling it "blood libel"? Camilla - 16/01/2011 12:23:47 PM 933 Views
Because if the facts were as they represent them those words would be applicable. Joel - 16/01/2011 12:49:22 PM 1112 Views
It's not entirely clear to me whether you're aware of this or not, but... Legolas - 16/01/2011 01:12:22 PM 1159 Views
That's why I said, "popularized". Joel - 16/01/2011 01:46:52 PM 1101 Views
I think Alan Dershowitz dealt with this nonsense already Isaac - 16/01/2011 02:34:10 PM 1468 Views
Interesting. I didn't realize it was so wide-spread. Legolas - 16/01/2011 03:10:28 PM 1011 Views
She wasn't even the first to use the term that week either Isaac - 16/01/2011 10:10:35 PM 1037 Views
I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. Legolas - 16/01/2011 10:18:54 PM 1026 Views
Re: I don't know that "expert" has anything to do with it. Isaac - 16/01/2011 11:30:38 PM 941 Views
Oh please don't you start to random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:34:43 PM 884 Views
I for one hadn't noticed it before. Legolas - 17/01/2011 10:25:57 PM 1067 Views
it was used here and nobody commented random thoughts - 17/01/2011 10:37:07 PM 951 Views
LOL, I totally forgot that got posted here Isaac - 17/01/2011 10:54:26 PM 998 Views
It's funny you should say that... Legolas - 18/01/2011 10:32:59 PM 1038 Views
Precisely: I noticed, but it hadn't become a rallying cry for "the real victim" (Palin). Joel - 19/01/2011 12:14:48 AM 1157 Views
I thought you were the real vicitim random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:49:06 PM 1116 Views
When and where did I say that? The ultimate victim is America, but six members of it just died. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:24:27 PM 843 Views
Re: It's funny you should say that... Isaac - 19/01/2011 03:29:52 PM 1016 Views
It was permissible to ignore until it became a rallying cry. Joel - 20/01/2011 04:27:23 PM 1055 Views
A rallying cry is hardly illegal Isaac - 20/01/2011 05:32:45 PM 1103 Views
I never said it was. Joel - 20/01/2011 06:59:39 PM 1200 Views
Oh, I noticed that one alright. Legolas - 18/01/2011 10:25:23 PM 874 Views
but is he accussed of being a tasteless moron who doesn't know what it means? random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:28:03 PM 919 Views
I don't know, if I have to judge him based on that one article, then tasteless moron, absolutely. Legolas - 19/01/2011 06:14:43 PM 1034 Views
compared to the way similar terms are used? random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:58:02 PM 1018 Views
I meant I hadn't seen it used in different contexts before. Legolas - 19/01/2011 07:35:00 PM 999 Views
The peole who called her stupid for using the term didn't know it was so wide spread either random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:33:19 PM 904 Views
Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. Joel - 16/01/2011 10:24:09 PM 1085 Views
Re: Indeed, my response to Legolas references Wikipedias quotation of him. Isaac - 16/01/2011 11:09:21 PM 1117 Views
Again, Giffords specifically made the connection between Palins imagery and an attack on her. Joel - 17/01/2011 12:53:08 AM 1266 Views
That means precisely nothing Isaac - 17/01/2011 03:59:07 PM 952 Views
It means everything. Joel - 18/01/2011 08:34:55 PM 1213 Views
I'm trying to understand your logic Chas - 19/01/2011 12:50:28 AM 823 Views
There are two points: Joel - 19/01/2011 02:47:48 AM 1028 Views
I don't agree, but I understand. *NM* Chas - 19/01/2011 10:14:13 PM 487 Views
Giffords' statements and Palins are matters of public record; they're indisputable. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:34:53 PM 1009 Views
I must say, if more people on both sides could say that we'd all be better for it. Joel - 20/01/2011 04:32:55 AM 1037 Views
Re: It means everything. Isaac - 19/01/2011 05:55:02 PM 851 Views
That's simply illogical. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:08:51 AM 1236 Views
the old step one steal underwear step three profit argument random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:01:14 PM 1108 Views
Your inability/unwillingness to follow basic and clearly delineated logic is not my failing. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:19:31 AM 965 Views
I admit I can't follow gnome logic *NM* random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:50:22 AM 479 Views
I demonstrated the connection, whether or not you choose to look the other way. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:16:28 PM 1000 Views
that is some twisted and bizarre logic random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:38:41 PM 1054 Views
Giffords said Palins crosshairs imagery would have "consequences"; Palin calls the suggestion libel. Joel - 18/01/2011 08:54:45 PM 948 Views
yes but the only consequences is liberals using them to slander Palin random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:58:35 PM 1019 Views
I read Toms reply; I don't think he exactly vindicated your position, nor meant to do so. Joel - 20/01/2011 01:52:37 AM 1293 Views
It was an example of blaming the victim, a phrase you keep misusing random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:28:21 PM 978 Views
I thought you said only liberals blinded by political bias committed that grave sin. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:47:09 PM 1025 Views
so in other words you again missed the point random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:26:49 PM 959 Views
Well, one of us did. Joel - 20/01/2011 09:24:35 PM 1091 Views
so lets be clear do you or don't you understand what it means to "blame the vicitm"? random thoughts - 20/01/2011 10:03:48 PM 710 Views
I understand it well; can we be equally clear you say the victim here is Palin? Joel - 20/01/2011 10:44:08 PM 1160 Views
So I am a little confused on something... MightyYT - 16/01/2011 02:38:59 PM 1101 Views
Palin putting Giffords district in the crosshairs and Giffords implying at the time she feared this Joel - 16/01/2011 11:21:36 PM 1236 Views
If I understand what you are saying correctly... MightyYT - 17/01/2011 07:07:56 AM 981 Views
I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. Joel - 17/01/2011 08:33:47 AM 993 Views
Re: I'm sorry you so badly misunderstand. Isaac - 17/01/2011 04:24:01 PM 1051 Views
The Secret Service does guard Congressmen, just not all of them automatically. Joel - 18/01/2011 09:13:39 PM 870 Views
No, they don't Isaac - 18/01/2011 10:19:34 PM 1065 Views
Really? Cannoli says differently, and I believe he's right on that one. Joel - 18/01/2011 10:50:51 PM 1144 Views
You seem to be reading what you want to from what I said Isaac - 19/01/2011 01:27:32 PM 999 Views
I read what you said & understood it as you restate here, hence I referenced local police (twice) Joel - 20/01/2011 02:15:17 AM 1034 Views
The problem here is your ignoring normal policing powers to concoct an absurdity Isaac - 20/01/2011 04:20:25 PM 1094 Views
More absurd than the notion such incitement warrants no notice? Joel - 20/01/2011 05:42:47 PM 1116 Views
really because people post that kind of crap daily and nothing happens random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:57:52 PM 943 Views
I thought waterboarding was OK and any suggestion to the contrary was terrorist sympathizing. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:54:05 PM 883 Views
way to dodge the point again random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:34:33 PM 908 Views
Do you have an example of a credible threat of injury to a Congressman, or calls for one? Joel - 20/01/2011 10:02:53 PM 981 Views
Your shifting your original premise, *again* Isaac - 20/01/2011 08:24:18 PM 963 Views
No, you're simply missing the point of it. Joel - 20/01/2011 11:09:57 PM 979 Views
There is no point Isaac - 21/01/2011 12:22:30 AM 1011 Views
If I had no point I wouldn't bother, but fair enough. Joel - 21/01/2011 01:20:32 AM 1258 Views
Uh...Last I checked conservatives didn't list the Communist Manifesto as a favourite book. Dragonsoul - 16/01/2011 03:05:07 PM 1275 Views
You're awesome at missing points, aren't you? Dannymac - 16/01/2011 07:26:30 PM 1022 Views
where is the accountability for those committing slander? random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:52:40 PM 943 Views
Libs hate Mein Kampf and We the Living; conservatives hate the Communist Manifesto: He's neither. Joel - 16/01/2011 10:06:02 PM 970 Views
conseartives hate Mein Kampf and liberals stil read the Communist Manifesto random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:57:22 PM 961 Views
That first line is says it all. Joel - 18/01/2011 09:34:06 PM 1041 Views
Nazis had more in common with communist then capitalist random thoughts - 19/01/2011 04:10:09 PM 1149 Views
The founder of fascism called it "the merger of corporate and national power". Joel - 20/01/2011 02:51:09 AM 1035 Views
and that is supposed to mean something? random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:06:18 PM 1037 Views
YOU are cherry picking. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:50:21 PM 973 Views
It is to be expected that this site would be libtard central... Shannow - 16/01/2011 05:23:53 PM 1249 Views
See my reply to Dragonsoul above. Dannymac - 16/01/2011 07:30:40 PM 1087 Views
Yeah, your first was better Isaac - 16/01/2011 09:48:58 PM 901 Views
Again, I don't think Palin intended this, but Giffords feared ten months ago that this could result. Joel - 16/01/2011 11:29:19 PM 1048 Views
And I call bullshit Cannoli - 18/01/2011 03:12:13 PM 1179 Views
If Palin wants to accuse Giffords of libel she should have the guts to do it to her face. Joel - 18/01/2011 10:39:07 PM 1143 Views
So if some jihadist shot Gifford, would you also blame Palin? Shannow - 19/01/2011 02:52:42 PM 1029 Views
don't get ti doesn't matter who is to blame it just matters if they can use it *NM* random thoughts - 19/01/2011 04:11:09 PM 481 Views
No, I'd blame the shooter first and the mullahs shouting, "JIHAD111" second, as I always do. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:11:33 AM 1125 Views
Then why are you even here? I pretty much agree with you entirely and I'm fairly liberal. *NM* Elaine - 18/01/2011 01:16:33 PM 567 Views
Palin didn't really have anything to do with this, but it makes sense she's blamed. Tom - 16/01/2011 10:19:51 PM 973 Views
Pretty much. Joel - 16/01/2011 11:44:35 PM 1044 Views
Did they ever catch the person(s) that vandalized Gifford's office? *NM* Tashmere - 17/01/2011 03:30:36 AM 478 Views
I didn't realize someone had, but it appears a militia leader was responsible (shocking, I know). Joel - 17/01/2011 07:04:08 AM 988 Views
politcal offices are vandalized on a regular basis *NM* random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:41:29 PM 448 Views
She only asked if they caught the guy, she didn't accuse anyone, Sarah. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:27:18 PM 929 Views
OK Olberman when did I imply otherwise? *NM* random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:48:41 PM 487 Views
"Political offices are vandalized on a regular basis". Joel - 20/01/2011 03:16:39 AM 1120 Views
Took you this long, huh? Macharius - 17/01/2011 01:53:31 PM 877 Views
I didn't want to look because I was afraid the charges against the far right demagogues might stick. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:07:26 PM 1211 Views
I am sick of the desperate attempts of liberals to find a way to use a tragedy random thoughts - 17/01/2011 02:31:18 PM 908 Views
I'm just curious. callandor1000 - 17/01/2011 03:23:47 PM 871 Views
Re: I'm just curious. Camilla - 17/01/2011 03:28:04 PM 1019 Views
I always said I'd do that after Bush was re-elected. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:52:45 PM 893 Views
like I said a matter of faith random thoughts - 17/01/2011 04:27:51 PM 884 Views
I find it interesting... Jeordam - 17/01/2011 05:31:54 PM 1035 Views
I mention her looks solely because... callandor1000 - 20/01/2011 02:30:42 PM 921 Views
Had that convo with the cab driver on the way home from a New Years party. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:42:07 PM 1164 Views
If slander, not mine, Giffords' (at least you don't err like Palin and say, "libel" ). Joel - 18/01/2011 11:14:23 PM 1089 Views
mark you calendar today is the day Joel offically went around the bend into insanity random thoughts - 19/01/2011 05:28:06 PM 904 Views
A mirror will show me who's to blame? On whom have I put a crosshairs? Joel - 20/01/2011 03:23:43 AM 945 Views
so it is all a matter of faith for you random thoughts - 20/01/2011 05:48:44 AM 897 Views
No, it's fairly straight forward logic. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:25:56 PM 1009 Views
sorry Joel but you haven't random thoughts - 20/01/2011 03:29:49 PM 809 Views
It's there; in this thread alone people from both sides of the aisle have acknowledged that. Joel - 20/01/2011 05:51:21 PM 894 Views
only in your does the connection exisit random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:39:35 PM 936 Views
No. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:35:09 PM 1015 Views
dude wake up random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:54:33 PM 1150 Views
Fine, I have no problem dropping the "right" label in my condemnations. Joel - 20/01/2011 10:39:34 PM 1141 Views
So in your opinion... Jeordam - 17/01/2011 05:27:58 PM 887 Views
How 'bout simply color coding them? Joel - 18/01/2011 11:21:03 PM 936 Views
Why not just blame Giffords? Cannoli - 17/01/2011 06:07:14 PM 1228 Views
Indeed, why not; Sarah Palin does. Joel - 18/01/2011 06:58:01 PM 1064 Views
The left are the ones storing up hate with their pathetic slaner random thoughts - 18/01/2011 07:53:23 PM 1006 Views
At least 95% of the blame is Loughners; he's a nut, but that doesn't exonerate the demagogues. Joel - 18/01/2011 11:24:11 PM 1106 Views
0% belongs to political rhetoric from the right random thoughts - 19/01/2011 02:47:56 PM 882 Views
Uh huh; it's absurd to mention right wing rhetoric when left wing rhetoric is the OBVIOUS culprit Joel - 19/01/2011 02:59:41 PM 918 Views
No leftist rhetoric? You just called a bunch of people 'dangeorus lunatics' Isaac - 19/01/2011 03:37:54 PM 873 Views
Rhetoric is one thing, but I didn't use violent imagery, did I? Joel - 20/01/2011 01:40:14 AM 1205 Views
no but the democratic party used very similar images in the same state random thoughts - 20/01/2011 06:41:19 PM 947 Views
It's news to me, but I condemn all violent inflammatory imagery and rhetoric. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:13:18 PM 909 Views
it was the national democrats random thoughts - 20/01/2011 08:32:01 PM 1013 Views
Then that's equally dangerous and reprehensible and more reason to loathe the DLC and DCCC. Joel - 20/01/2011 09:49:08 PM 1277 Views
The right is not the ones claiming rhetoric is the issue random thoughts - 19/01/2011 03:58:39 PM 921 Views
"WE aren't doing it, except for when we are". Admission of guilt is a poor defense. Joel - 20/01/2011 03:25:16 AM 899 Views
The irony of this thread is not lost on me. Jacob - 19/01/2011 04:09:01 PM 1074 Views
Exactly. *NM* Avendesora - 19/01/2011 04:51:40 PM 532 Views
Bizarre thread for that Soapbox Isaac - 19/01/2011 05:17:58 PM 817 Views
You missed the point, obviously. Jacob - 19/01/2011 06:04:23 PM 923 Views
so you are saying it is the same old RAFO random thoughts - 19/01/2011 06:47:24 PM 998 Views
The thread has admittedly degenerated Isaac - 19/01/2011 07:02:12 PM 849 Views
Check your NB. Noted you a response. *NM* Jacob - 19/01/2011 07:04:58 PM 514 Views
That I knew it would go this way is why I avoided looking closely for so long. Joel - 19/01/2011 11:20:44 PM 1078 Views
Hey, now. I have to step in. Camilla - 20/01/2011 04:44:49 PM 1104 Views
I'm just saying a significant link can be demonstrated. Joel - 20/01/2011 07:07:27 PM 1149 Views
Re: OK, I'm Officially Sick of the "Blood Libel" BS. dart_board - 22/01/2011 05:49:44 PM 1089 Views
We can debate whether it's coincidental, but the connections are documented fact Joel - 22/01/2011 08:17:24 PM 1064 Views
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