For atheism to be a tenable position, one must assume that millions lie about their experiences.
Tom Send a noteboard - 20/12/2011 04:11:53 AM
Certainly, there are plenty of people who do lie about these things - for recognition, in lying to themselves, for fun, pathologically or otherwise - and others who exaggerate experience or self-select.
Even taking that into account, there is a tremendous level of consistency with which certain "spiritual" experiences take place. We know that people are sometimes able to exhibit superhuman strength, tossing aside cars and whatnot. Sheer physics tells us this should not be possible. It is common for the dying to see the dead, about a month or so before their own deaths (and thus not part of any "brain death hallucination"). Many people see people at the moment of that person's death in a place the person cannot be (i.e., the "I saw my uncle in the dining room and said, 'How nice of you to visit!' and then when I went to tell my wife, he was gone. My aunt called then and said he had died 300 miles away").
Dismissing all of this as "the world is lying to me" or "people are lying to themselves" is very difficult. The numbers are much higher than, say, alien abduction stories, and so dismissing it as hysteria or schizophrenia or a similar disorder is extremely flippant.
In other words, atheism goes against anecdotal evidence that rises to a level that it cannot be merely discounted and swept under the rug.
Even taking that into account, there is a tremendous level of consistency with which certain "spiritual" experiences take place. We know that people are sometimes able to exhibit superhuman strength, tossing aside cars and whatnot. Sheer physics tells us this should not be possible. It is common for the dying to see the dead, about a month or so before their own deaths (and thus not part of any "brain death hallucination"). Many people see people at the moment of that person's death in a place the person cannot be (i.e., the "I saw my uncle in the dining room and said, 'How nice of you to visit!' and then when I went to tell my wife, he was gone. My aunt called then and said he had died 300 miles away").
Dismissing all of this as "the world is lying to me" or "people are lying to themselves" is very difficult. The numbers are much higher than, say, alien abduction stories, and so dismissing it as hysteria or schizophrenia or a similar disorder is extremely flippant.
In other words, atheism goes against anecdotal evidence that rises to a level that it cannot be merely discounted and swept under the rug.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius
Ummaka qinnassa nīk!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Tom on 20/12/2011 at 04:12:18 AM
Kim Jong-il is dead. Would you become a fervent believer?
- 19/12/2011 03:37:28 AM
1721 Views
If I was a Christian, I'd pray that he would burn forever in hell.
- 19/12/2011 03:47:52 AM
1133 Views
See, I can't be an atheist.
- 19/12/2011 03:53:55 AM
1097 Views
I agree about atheism
- 19/12/2011 04:19:02 AM
996 Views
It's an approximation.
- 19/12/2011 05:40:05 PM
996 Views
no, I'm not saying that the sheer number of people alone is sufficient
- 19/12/2011 10:13:09 PM
878 Views
No, Pascal's Wager is stupid.
- 19/12/2011 03:09:42 PM
973 Views
You obviously misread my comments or ignored them.
- 19/12/2011 03:39:59 PM
998 Views
You're answering a different point to the one I was addressing.
- 19/12/2011 04:01:54 PM
905 Views
For atheism to be a tenable position, one must assume that millions lie about their experiences.
- 20/12/2011 04:11:53 AM
998 Views
Look, doesn't this go against your most sacred principle?
- 20/12/2011 06:43:27 AM
956 Views
No, it doesn't.
- 20/12/2011 08:30:55 PM
862 Views
Re: No, it doesn't.
- 20/12/2011 09:21:22 PM
912 Views
This militant atheism is somewhat amusing.
- 20/12/2011 09:48:57 PM
921 Views
... somewhat irrational at times too
- 21/12/2011 01:22:54 AM
836 Views
Huh?
- 21/12/2011 10:47:06 AM
896 Views
That's somewhat unrelated to the intended point of the post
- 21/12/2011 12:41:49 PM
898 Views
My "Huh?" was at your claim that any reasonable definition Kim Jong-il was a millitant athiest
- 21/12/2011 12:58:44 PM
873 Views
You're objecting to me calling the Military Dictator militant?
- 21/12/2011 03:13:35 PM
939 Views
Your position isn't rational nor logical
- 20/12/2011 12:45:03 PM
947 Views
I never stated it was either. That's the problem with spiritual matters.
- 20/12/2011 08:43:46 PM
844 Views
How about a faith atheist?
- 19/12/2011 04:28:59 PM
1032 Views
Nevermind. It appears you answered that in your reply to Tim. *NM*
- 19/12/2011 04:32:19 PM
505 Views
Re: See, I can't be an atheist.
- 19/12/2011 04:57:23 PM
989 Views
It's impossible to tell if worshipping a false god would be worse than worshipping no god at all.
- 20/12/2011 04:14:59 AM
807 Views
Sounds like you must be a modern-day prophet
- 19/12/2011 05:24:24 PM
838 Views
Idiocy. Confirmation bias doesn't explain away external phenomena.
- 20/12/2011 04:19:10 AM
943 Views
Well.
- 21/12/2011 01:49:36 PM
943 Views
I didn't forget about it. I was getting ready to give up on it.
- 21/12/2011 02:27:18 PM
843 Views
Also, learn to use the subjunctive. It's "if I WERE a Christian..."
- 19/12/2011 03:54:20 AM
942 Views
The sad thing about that comment...
- 19/12/2011 04:52:57 AM
1068 Views
I'm pretty sure there's plenty of middle ground between those two examples
- 19/12/2011 05:31:13 PM
843 Views
- 19/12/2011 05:31:13 PM
843 Views
Tom, I think this means you should take up ForEx trading. *NM*
- 19/12/2011 04:00:20 AM
429 Views
I might. I'm close enough to it as is. I just did some ForEx ISDAs for clients...
- 19/12/2011 04:03:11 AM
1028 Views
I thought you were asking if I believed in KJ-I, the Eternal Leader
- 19/12/2011 06:55:08 AM
847 Views
The article I just read said he died on Saturday.
- 19/12/2011 08:58:17 AM
924 Views
Yeah, he actually died on a train Saturday morning before Tom made the comment. *NM*
- 19/12/2011 09:13:44 PM
389 Views
I'm not claiming causality. And, for the record, I first made the comment on Friday afternoon.
- 20/12/2011 04:25:07 AM
920 Views
You know what's really weird?
- 19/12/2011 11:32:23 AM
918 Views
They took it down, apparently. *NM*
- 20/12/2011 04:40:24 AM
414 Views
Not surprising, still in the revisions if anyone wants to see of course
- 20/12/2011 11:06:05 AM
1093 Views
He's not dead-dead. Neither is his father. Just ask the North Koreans.
- 19/12/2011 04:23:48 PM
894 Views
Re: He's not dead-dead. Neither is his father. Just ask the North Koreans.
- 19/12/2011 09:15:09 PM
853 Views
The problem with predictions that come true
- 19/12/2011 05:28:24 PM
957 Views
I don't make a lot of predictions. *NM*
- 19/12/2011 08:18:53 PM
541 Views
Well you should start at least journaling the ones that you do make.
- 19/12/2011 08:40:18 PM
916 Views
I actually now do tell my friends when I have dreams that have the "feel" to them.
- 20/12/2011 04:36:07 AM
982 Views
I can attest to the fact that this conversation took place on Facebook Saturday.
- 19/12/2011 09:19:06 PM
848 Views
Yes, TMJ, you also contributed in this case. *NM*
- 20/12/2011 04:38:42 AM
398 Views
Jeez, I hope I never get on your bad side
- 20/12/2011 12:06:54 AM
812 Views
- 20/12/2011 12:06:54 AM
812 Views
Things did change for the better with Stalin's death.
- 20/12/2011 02:51:12 AM
885 Views
So I guess you want me to destroy the voodoo doll I have of you? Oh wait...never mind.
*NM*
- 20/12/2011 04:37:35 AM
392 Views
*NM*
- 20/12/2011 04:37:35 AM
392 Views

*NM*