Active Users:615 Time:30/05/2026 02:44:20 PM
I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean. Joel Send a noteboard - 05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM
"I believe there isn't a god, though of course it's possible I could be wrong since nobody knows everything. I consider it pretty unlikely though, and I'm going to live my life as though there's no god until I see some decent evidence to the contrary."

And if you call it "agnostic", then how do you differentiate it from this position?:

"I have no idea what to think about the existence of a god: maybe there is, maybe there ain't. I expect we'll never know for sure."

Essentially, you're insisting that you don't really believe something if you admit even a faint possibility that you might be wrong. I hear this a lot, and I think it stems from failure to understand that in religions, unswerving belief is seen as a good thing, whereas for scientists it's a bad thing.

Like I said, it has to do with nothing but the difference between certainty and probability. It is the difference between knowing Schrödingers Cat is dead/alive, believing it is and having no position. Only the claims to knowledge represents firm statements; the beliefs absent certainty, like the absent belief, are only special cases of the general one: Uncertainty. Any degree of probability represents some uncertainty; only certainty represents certainty.

Claiming absolute certainty when none is impossible is very BAD for metaphysics, and physics remains ultimately just a special case of metaphysics. It is an empirical concrete metaphysics, and works quite well if we accept concrete empirical premises. Unfortunately, those premises are no more absolutely proven than any other (though a greater preponderance of evidence exists for them than nearly any other) and are practically useless in the real areas neither concrete nor empirical.

Unswerving belief (i.e. absolute certainty, especially absent absolute proof) is, as you say, bad for science. Atheism is such an unswerving belief; saying, "I believe there is no deity, and will live my life accordingly, but I might be wrong, and will reverse my position if (and only if) presented sufficient evidence of that," is agnosticism. That, and the impossibility of proving a negative, is why agnosticism is the rational position absent convincing evidence for a deity. There is a reason widespread erosion of religious belief did not instantly and automatically lead to widespread atheism: Because knowing my hand does not conceal a black pawn is not the same as knowing it DOES conceal a white one, or nothing; either is possible, as are many other possibilities beside those.

"Strong/weak" or "positive/negative" are far more sensible labels for agnosticism than for atheism. Agnosticism admits a gray scale atheism does not.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 05/03/2012 at 10:54:48 AM
Reply to message
Do you know the best way to anger an atheist? - 28/02/2012 07:10:57 PM 2180 Views
Or, you could baptize one of them, posthumously. - 28/02/2012 07:32:48 PM 1501 Views
Ooo that is hilarious *NM* - 28/02/2012 08:22:19 PM 554 Views
I can't think of any reason for an atheist to be annoyed by that. - 28/02/2012 11:08:44 PM 1221 Views
Well, for starters, it's really effing rude. - 28/02/2012 11:31:36 PM 1300 Views
It is an act of love. - 29/02/2012 12:34:03 AM 1288 Views
Everyone does it for that reason? (edits for clarity) - 29/02/2012 10:27:02 AM 1175 Views
I have some disturbing news for you... - 29/02/2012 06:42:41 PM 1217 Views
For anyone reading this: the guy above is wrong, and I am admitting that to you on his behalf, so - 29/02/2012 07:15:38 PM 1254 Views
Maybe without realizing it, you have articulated.... - 29/02/2012 07:24:13 PM 1067 Views
I actually find that conversation quite interesting. - 29/02/2012 08:18:35 PM 1187 Views
Re: I actually find that conversation quite interesting. - 29/02/2012 09:07:06 PM 1257 Views
I cannot possibly agree more with these two paragraphs of yours... - 29/02/2012 09:28:09 PM 1254 Views
I'm surprised to see some of this. - 01/03/2012 12:11:31 PM 1105 Views
You said it was really effing rude. - 29/02/2012 08:18:40 PM 1266 Views
I meant that the act of choosing for someone else - 29/02/2012 08:54:02 PM 1141 Views
Question - 29/02/2012 07:58:32 PM 1240 Views
No, I don't blame them or think they are fools. - 29/02/2012 08:41:13 PM 1239 Views
It is not an act of love to defy the beliefs of a loved one. - 29/02/2012 02:32:45 PM 1332 Views
Rape? That is ridiculous. - 29/02/2012 05:26:13 PM 1247 Views
It's a bit of hyperbole, but not too far from it, imo - 29/02/2012 05:45:39 PM 1254 Views
You are trying your best to not understand. - 29/02/2012 07:12:57 PM 1265 Views
I suspect that that is where a lot of the issue with it lies. - 02/03/2012 01:33:43 AM 1337 Views
one thing - 29/02/2012 06:25:45 PM 1274 Views
Precisely *NM* - 29/02/2012 06:59:15 PM 592 Views
Bad example - 05/03/2012 05:06:21 AM 1335 Views
Why would they be angry about that? - 02/03/2012 01:23:56 AM 1461 Views
Denying people rights since it was written 3000 years ago? - 28/02/2012 07:44:02 PM 1166 Views
Isn't religion different than faith, though? - 28/02/2012 07:44:07 PM 1278 Views
Yeah that's pretty much what I said - 28/02/2012 08:21:56 PM 1090 Views
Only if I get to be Pope. - 28/02/2012 08:25:45 PM 1218 Views
I love me my vices! Thanks Pope - 28/02/2012 10:14:27 PM 1105 Views
Generally the same way you piss off anyone else - 28/02/2012 08:43:04 PM 1207 Views
Great post. - 28/02/2012 09:18:38 PM 1187 Views
I find that the best way is to smile. - 29/02/2012 06:23:50 AM 1213 Views
Some answers - 28/02/2012 09:05:35 PM 1172 Views
that won't work on Buddists - 28/02/2012 09:21:48 PM 1237 Views
On the other hand ... - 28/02/2012 09:28:27 PM 1088 Views
For some reason I always imagine Buddhists as the monk class on RPG games... *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:13:27 PM 603 Views
LOL same *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:31:38 PM 581 Views
Best way to anger an atheist, by declaring all atheists are the same. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:38:51 PM 732 Views
Telling anyone what they actually believe will work. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:51:56 PM 578 Views
This kind of works for many, doesn't it? - 29/02/2012 06:22:33 PM 1085 Views
I'm an atheist, and I consider it to be my religion. *NM* - 28/02/2012 10:51:00 PM 548 Views
Common error number 1: "Atheism isn't a lack of belief, but rather a belief that God doesn't exist." - 28/02/2012 11:18:23 PM 1404 Views
I second that - 29/02/2012 03:46:15 AM 1209 Views
Curiously, anger at statements of simple obvious facts is a hallmark of religious fundamentalism. - 29/02/2012 10:27:29 AM 1327 Views
What you're doing there is defining "atheist" and "agnostic" in a way that suits you, but... - 29/02/2012 11:50:27 AM 1103 Views
What I am doing is using the terms as they were universally used until about the time I was born. - 05/03/2012 01:11:21 AM 1258 Views
So what do you call this position?: - 05/03/2012 08:43:20 AM 1205 Views
I call them both agnostic, but the former leans toward atheism while the latter has no lean. - 05/03/2012 10:53:02 AM 1300 Views
See, there you go again, defining atheism in such a way as to make it sound ridiculous. - 05/03/2012 11:21:17 AM 1078 Views
Well, is unswerving belief a good thing, or not? - 05/03/2012 11:57:05 AM 1298 Views
What's happening - 05/03/2012 02:24:41 PM 1317 Views
Conversationally, DKs use of "atheism" at the start of this convo is the only practical definition. - 07/03/2012 03:10:18 AM 1619 Views
Oh really? The guy who was doing it to annoy people? - 07/03/2012 09:53:38 PM 1215 Views
The guy who was doing it to annoy atheists based on the terms technical and popular meaning, yes. - 11/03/2012 04:04:36 AM 1100 Views
Whatever. - 12/03/2012 12:39:24 AM 1592 Views
*NM* - 12/03/2012 01:14:39 AM 600 Views
I understand that as "I completely agree." - 13/03/2012 12:11:18 AM 1383 Views
I saw it as.... - 13/03/2012 10:44:37 PM 1108 Views
My browser does not like your gif. - 13/03/2012 11:32:06 PM 1380 Views
I have a few good quotes for this one. - 29/02/2012 03:29:22 PM 1233 Views
I snerfled. *NM* - 29/02/2012 05:12:32 PM 580 Views
Re: That's it? *NM* - 01/03/2012 06:33:48 AM 650 Views
Re: Do you know the best way to anger an atheist? - 02/03/2012 01:47:03 AM 1146 Views

Reply to Message