It has nothing to do with consequences or responsibility. It's about life & privacy. Period
Cannoli Send a noteboard - 23/08/2012 12:04:55 PM
While I personally have no problems with either of these two opinions
1) Abortion should be illegal even in rape for it is life, and life is sacrosanct
2) Abortion should be legal for it is a women choice
There can be a philosophical reason for a middle ground. One possible reason is that people believe that a person's actions should have consequences. If a women has sex and get pregnant she should not have an abortion for it was her decision to have sex in the first place. Now she may not have wanted to get pregnant, maybe she was on birth control and she got unlucky, maybe the condom broke, maybe she didn't know it was near her time of ovulation and has sex without protection etc. You may not have planned to have a child but you shouldn't have an abortion for your decision's have consequences.
Then get rid of legally mandated child support. Her decision, HER BODY, her consequences. But his dime. At most, child support should only be imposed on relationship partners, who entered into or continued a commited relationship with the child's mother. Either that, or if the woman can make the unilateral decision to carry the child to term, the man should be able to make a unilateral decision as to his own involvement or responsibility for the child. As it is, women already duck or pass along too much of the responsibility. Imposing legal consequences on this narrow of an issue is absurd. 1) Abortion should be illegal even in rape for it is life, and life is sacrosanct
2) Abortion should be legal for it is a women choice
There can be a philosophical reason for a middle ground. One possible reason is that people believe that a person's actions should have consequences. If a women has sex and get pregnant she should not have an abortion for it was her decision to have sex in the first place. Now she may not have wanted to get pregnant, maybe she was on birth control and she got unlucky, maybe the condom broke, maybe she didn't know it was near her time of ovulation and has sex without protection etc. You may not have planned to have a child but you shouldn't have an abortion for your decision's have consequences.
But rape is different, the women did not choose to have sex. She did not choose to be violated and that what is rape is the ultimate violation. The ultimate removal of choice, rape is about pure power and using that power to subjugate another.
And what is murder? Reasons don't matter. Justification does not matter. Just as there is no excuse for raping a woman, no matter how "provocative" her behavior or how often she had given prior consent. Ultimately, she can say no at any point, even in media res, and defiance of that is rape (within reason, of course - I'm not suggesting sending people to jail for not pulling out fast enough, of course). Likewise, with infanticide. Treat the pregnancy as another injurious consequence that takes nine months to heal, if that makes it easier to reconcile, but if you're going to oppose abortion at any point, the only reasonable grounds for doing so is that it is a human life. If it is human, than the misbehavior of its parents is insufficient grounds for termination or even denial of life-sustaining efforts. If it is not a human life, then opposing abortion is like opposing tattoo removal - you made a decision, you live with the consequences! In such a situation some people believe that a women should have the choice to continue the pregnancy or abort it.
And those people are wrong. That attitude can only be reconciled by a denial of the humanity of the fetus.She did not make the choice to have sex but at least she had some choice on what happens with her body months after the heinous act. To force her to carry a rape baby to term is to continue to subjugate that women again for a period of nine months.
It's a consequence of the sex. If a rapist cuts off a finger, you don't get one back and you don't get to mutilate him in revenge. The unpleasant possibility of the consequences being extended for the woman do not justify infanticide, anymore than heart disease justifies organ harvesting.And there is also the legal issue Atkins alluded to with his blather - the abuse of the rape exception. It could even lead to false accusations, costly investigations and wrongful prosecutions that violate civil rights, when women try to evade the consequences of a failed relationship or one night stand by claiming rape. More likely, everyone will turn a blind eye and pretend it's an unsolvable case and let her get her abortion, in which case all your justifications about choice and consequences are tossed out the window and she gets the abortion you (theoretically) agree she should not have. What's worse, the sort of person who would use such a lie is even less deserving of a waiver from responsibility and consequences.
If you are sincere about the issues of consequence and choice, then logically, there should be some sort of legal standard to meet for the waiver, hence the issue of "legitimate rape." Presumably the Congressthing was using that term in opposition to retroactive revocation of consent or substance-abuse-impaired judgment, his moronic assertion that conception implies consent notwithstanding. If there is going to be a requirement that a crime was committed, then the crime has to be investigated, prosecuted and so forth. What if the biological father of the child is found innocent by a jury? Legally speaking, no rape occurred, so how can the "victim" justify her use of that exemption? Due process for the accused rapist would almost certainly take the pregnancy into those areas where a lot of people are uncomfortable with allowing abortion anyway. Hell, if it takes half the pregnancy to prove the rape and the paternity (I am presuming the ability of modern medicine to prove the paternity of a fetus - if that is not possible before it is viable, even the excuse of rape is bullshit, because how is a woman in a sexual relationship going to prove it's not her partner's child? ), why not go with a C-section to give the fetus a chance to live? I am fairly certain that premature babies have survived after only a little more than 20-25 weeks of gestation.
An honest and thoughtful consideration of the rape exemption, as opposed to an emotional or agenda-driven compromise, must deal with these issues or alternatives. You can't just handwave the issue by saying "except in the case of rape" to demonstrate you are not sexist. Anyway, I reiterate my position that the only question is the humanity of the fetus. If it is such, there is no excuse for deliberately and actively terminating it, and if it is not, there is no excuse for imposing on the private medical decisions of the woman, no matter how much she needs a lesson about consequences and responsibility for her actions.
Full disclosure one of my close friends and coworkers is the product of his mother being raped and her making the decision to raise the baby as her own son.
Ask her, if you would, at what point did her son stop being a symptom of abuse and turn into a human being? While I admire and her respect her courage to do the right thing, it does not make doing the wrong thing acceptable. Her virture in this situation comes not from going the extra mile (though of course, she could have made other arrangements for his upbringing), but from not taking the easy and immoral way out when her circumstances made it possible.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off
22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM
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Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest.
22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM
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That is second on my list of things I remember about him, probably down to third now.
22/08/2012 11:21:17 PM
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People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate
23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM
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Bullshit
23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM
- 500 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway
23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM
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That is a dangerous line of logic.
23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM
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Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments
24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM
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Sure it was, but we can do it your way.
24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM
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Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too
24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM
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I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led.
24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM
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Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary
24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM
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No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either.
24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM
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I'm not even sure what that means
25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM
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The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads.
25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM
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Okay, we're done here
26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM
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Quotes are not my opinion.
26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM
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You'd really benefit from post-secondary education.
26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM
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Further post-secondary education, you mean; probably so, though not for the reasons you stated.
26/08/2012 08:20:45 PM
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Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually?
27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM
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It has nothing to do with consequences or responsibility. It's about life & privacy. Period
23/08/2012 12:04:55 PM
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To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments.
23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM
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Really? *NM*
23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM
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Yeah.
23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM
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I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response.
23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM
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Heh, I didn't think so.
23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM
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I said Akins comments needed MORE context.
23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM
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Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM
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Re: Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM
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Re: Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM
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Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries.
23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM
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And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air
23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM
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This
23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM
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Eh
23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM
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I read it the same way Jen did
23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM
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Why?
23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM
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See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it.
23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM
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You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely.
23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM
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I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule.
23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM
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Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM
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Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM
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Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM
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Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM
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couple things
24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM
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Re: couple things
24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM
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You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange.
24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM
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I can
23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM
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OK
23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM
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Bullshit.
23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM
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Re: Bullshit.
23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
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I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets
23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM
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Um, I'm not sure about that last bit
23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM
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this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned
24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM
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Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well.
24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM
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McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate.
24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM
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Interesting.
24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM
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Yeah, that about covers it; personally, I am developing a grudging respect for Akin.
24/08/2012 06:30:43 AM
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no it isn't kinda true
24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM
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The MO GOP voters who nominated him for being "most conservative" think it is.
25/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
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