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It has nothing to do with consequences or responsibility. It's about life & privacy. Period Cannoli Send a noteboard - 23/08/2012 12:04:55 PM
While I personally have no problems with either of these two opinions
1) Abortion should be illegal even in rape for it is life, and life is sacrosanct
2) Abortion should be legal for it is a women choice

There can be a philosophical reason for a middle ground. One possible reason is that people believe that a person's actions should have consequences. If a women has sex and get pregnant she should not have an abortion for it was her decision to have sex in the first place. Now she may not have wanted to get pregnant, maybe she was on birth control and she got unlucky, maybe the condom broke, maybe she didn't know it was near her time of ovulation and has sex without protection etc. You may not have planned to have a child but you shouldn't have an abortion for your decision's have consequences.
Then get rid of legally mandated child support. Her decision, HER BODY, her consequences. But his dime. At most, child support should only be imposed on relationship partners, who entered into or continued a commited relationship with the child's mother. Either that, or if the woman can make the unilateral decision to carry the child to term, the man should be able to make a unilateral decision as to his own involvement or responsibility for the child. As it is, women already duck or pass along too much of the responsibility. Imposing legal consequences on this narrow of an issue is absurd.

But rape is different, the women did not choose to have sex. She did not choose to be violated and that what is rape is the ultimate violation. The ultimate removal of choice, rape is about pure power and using that power to subjugate another.
And what is murder? Reasons don't matter. Justification does not matter. Just as there is no excuse for raping a woman, no matter how "provocative" her behavior or how often she had given prior consent. Ultimately, she can say no at any point, even in media res, and defiance of that is rape (within reason, of course - I'm not suggesting sending people to jail for not pulling out fast enough, of course). Likewise, with infanticide. Treat the pregnancy as another injurious consequence that takes nine months to heal, if that makes it easier to reconcile, but if you're going to oppose abortion at any point, the only reasonable grounds for doing so is that it is a human life. If it is human, than the misbehavior of its parents is insufficient grounds for termination or even denial of life-sustaining efforts. If it is not a human life, then opposing abortion is like opposing tattoo removal - you made a decision, you live with the consequences!

In such a situation some people believe that a women should have the choice to continue the pregnancy or abort it.
And those people are wrong. That attitude can only be reconciled by a denial of the humanity of the fetus.

She did not make the choice to have sex but at least she had some choice on what happens with her body months after the heinous act. To force her to carry a rape baby to term is to continue to subjugate that women again for a period of nine months.
It's a consequence of the sex. If a rapist cuts off a finger, you don't get one back and you don't get to mutilate him in revenge. The unpleasant possibility of the consequences being extended for the woman do not justify infanticide, anymore than heart disease justifies organ harvesting.

And there is also the legal issue Atkins alluded to with his blather - the abuse of the rape exception. It could even lead to false accusations, costly investigations and wrongful prosecutions that violate civil rights, when women try to evade the consequences of a failed relationship or one night stand by claiming rape. More likely, everyone will turn a blind eye and pretend it's an unsolvable case and let her get her abortion, in which case all your justifications about choice and consequences are tossed out the window and she gets the abortion you (theoretically) agree she should not have. What's worse, the sort of person who would use such a lie is even less deserving of a waiver from responsibility and consequences.

If you are sincere about the issues of consequence and choice, then logically, there should be some sort of legal standard to meet for the waiver, hence the issue of "legitimate rape." Presumably the Congressthing was using that term in opposition to retroactive revocation of consent or substance-abuse-impaired judgment, his moronic assertion that conception implies consent notwithstanding. If there is going to be a requirement that a crime was committed, then the crime has to be investigated, prosecuted and so forth. What if the biological father of the child is found innocent by a jury? Legally speaking, no rape occurred, so how can the "victim" justify her use of that exemption? Due process for the accused rapist would almost certainly take the pregnancy into those areas where a lot of people are uncomfortable with allowing abortion anyway. Hell, if it takes half the pregnancy to prove the rape and the paternity (I am presuming the ability of modern medicine to prove the paternity of a fetus - if that is not possible before it is viable, even the excuse of rape is bullshit, because how is a woman in a sexual relationship going to prove it's not her partner's child? ), why not go with a C-section to give the fetus a chance to live? I am fairly certain that premature babies have survived after only a little more than 20-25 weeks of gestation.

An honest and thoughtful consideration of the rape exemption, as opposed to an emotional or agenda-driven compromise, must deal with these issues or alternatives. You can't just handwave the issue by saying "except in the case of rape" to demonstrate you are not sexist. Anyway, I reiterate my position that the only question is the humanity of the fetus. If it is such, there is no excuse for deliberately and actively terminating it, and if it is not, there is no excuse for imposing on the private medical decisions of the woman, no matter how much she needs a lesson about consequences and responsibility for her actions.

Full disclosure one of my close friends and coworkers is the product of his mother being raped and her making the decision to raise the baby as her own son.
Ask her, if you would, at what point did her son stop being a symptom of abuse and turn into a human being? While I admire and her respect her courage to do the right thing, it does not make doing the wrong thing acceptable. Her virture in this situation comes not from going the extra mile (though of course, she could have made other arrangements for his upbringing), but from not taking the easy and immoral way out when her circumstances made it possible.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
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Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off - 22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM 1054 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest. - 22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM 624 Views
Erm... what on earth is that? - 22/08/2012 11:19:13 PM 446 Views
Celebrity Big Brother in the UK - 22/08/2012 11:22:17 PM 494 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate - 23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM 595 Views
Bullshit - 23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM 500 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway - 23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM 518 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic. - 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM 750 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments - 24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM 452 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way. - 24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM 521 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too - 24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM 536 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led. - 24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM 617 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary - 24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM 569 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either. - 24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM 731 Views
I'm not even sure what that means - 25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM 462 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads. - 25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM 524 Views
Okay, we're done here - 26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM 494 Views
Quotes are not my opinion. - 26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM 467 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education. - 26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM 557 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually? - 27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM 585 Views
T^T - 27/08/2012 04:39:33 AM 510 Views
Is that the emoticon for perky titties? *NM* - 27/08/2012 11:07:06 PM 250 Views
It has nothing to do with consequences or responsibility. It's about life & privacy. Period - 23/08/2012 12:04:55 PM 620 Views
He is an absolute berk. *NM* - 23/08/2012 01:08:58 AM 452 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments. - 23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM 577 Views
Really? *NM* - 23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM 328 Views
Yeah. - 23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM 525 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response. - 23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM 519 Views
Heh, I didn't think so. - 23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM 563 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context. - 23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM 653 Views
Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM 473 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM 501 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM 477 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries. - 23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM 501 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air - 23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM 545 Views
No argument there. - 23/08/2012 11:46:01 PM 534 Views
This - 23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM 548 Views
Okay. I misunderstood. Sorry. *NM* - 23/08/2012 09:58:20 PM 299 Views
Eh - 23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM 494 Views
Well, I didn't take it that way. - 23/08/2012 10:42:01 PM 562 Views
Good - 24/08/2012 02:20:27 AM 562 Views
Ah, I can understand if that is the case. - 23/08/2012 07:46:38 PM 526 Views
I read it the same way Jen did - 23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM 460 Views
Why? - 23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM 539 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it. - 23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM 527 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely. - 23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM 502 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule. - 23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM 513 Views
Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM 487 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM 453 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM 458 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM 557 Views
couple things - 24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM 465 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM 498 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:45:38 PM 445 Views
Re: couple things - 25/08/2012 12:11:03 AM 490 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange. - 24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM 472 Views
Ew. - 24/08/2012 06:56:27 PM 508 Views
Yes, that about covers it. - 24/08/2012 07:42:13 PM 478 Views
Yes, I was talking about Galoway and what he said - 25/08/2012 12:15:15 AM 616 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:34:51 PM 545 Views
I can - 23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM 434 Views
I gotta say I am with Paul - 24/08/2012 12:27:44 AM 532 Views
Hm. - 24/08/2012 02:08:33 AM 450 Views
OK - 23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM 476 Views
Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM 446 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM 638 Views
To start again then Joel - 23/08/2012 11:14:07 PM 461 Views
My mistake then, sorry. - 23/08/2012 11:32:34 PM 499 Views
Agreeing without agreeing. - 23/08/2012 12:24:10 PM 560 Views
I have gotten used to you being right for the wrong reasons. - 23/08/2012 07:42:32 PM 471 Views
Yes - 23/08/2012 06:34:38 AM 628 Views
Indeed - 23/08/2012 08:47:40 PM 456 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets - 23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM 554 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit - 23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM 474 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned - 24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM 472 Views
well, that is where I'm confused. - 24/08/2012 07:03:16 PM 501 Views
Maybe I watch to much CNN - 24/08/2012 07:30:23 PM 450 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well. - 24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM 526 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate. - 24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM 673 Views
Interesting. - 24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM 463 Views
no it isn't kinda true - 24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM 443 Views

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