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Well, I have to clarify... Legolas Send a noteboard - 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM
I'm pretty much going on the assumption here that in such cases, the sleeping person is expected to wake up nearly immediately - if for some reason the sleeping person is so fast asleep that they just keep sleeping, it does rather start to resemble sex with a blow-up doll.

That also goes for the Assange case - I'm operating on the assumption that the woman woke when he started doing that and, presumably, told him to knock it off.
Now if it has been agreed in advance that it is okay then it isn't or if it is as a result of a misunderstanding - for example one sleepy person thinking the other sleeping person is in a similar state of wakefulness and responding then I think in a relationship it can be seen a mistake.

The little Wikipedia research I've done claimed at one point that the victim later amended her statement to saying she had been "half asleep" rather than "asleep", which fits well with my interpretation above. Of course, it might be best not to blindly rely on that.
I don't see it as a grey area at all - what he did was start having sex with someone who didn't even know what was happening, let alone have a chance to consent (and one of my major issues with Joel is his repeated stating that it hinges on refusal and not consent, which frankly I think any sane person would see as nonsense).

I don't think it's nonsense to be bothered about the notion of people being accused or even convicted of rape when they were understandably convinced, based on reasonable grounds, that it was consensual. Of course, "reasonable grounds" are impossible to define, but then that's why it's a grey area. Obviously in general it's about consent, not refusal, but in cases where there are "reasonable grounds" to lead one to conclude that it's consensual, it's important for the non-consenting partner to make that refusal clear. And having previously had consensual sex does change one's frame of reference, changes how explicit a consent you'd need to reasonably suppose that sex is welcome.
Cuddling up? fair enough. Sex acts on their sleeping body? Utterly wrong.
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Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off - 22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM 1194 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest. - 22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM 793 Views
Erm... what on earth is that? - 22/08/2012 11:19:13 PM 582 Views
Celebrity Big Brother in the UK - 22/08/2012 11:22:17 PM 665 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate - 23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM 741 Views
Bullshit - 23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM 637 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway - 23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM 674 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic. - 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM 962 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments - 24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM 594 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way. - 24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM 661 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too - 24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM 700 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led. - 24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM 778 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary - 24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM 699 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either. - 24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM 897 Views
I'm not even sure what that means - 25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM 593 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads. - 25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM 678 Views
Okay, we're done here - 26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM 654 Views
Quotes are not my opinion. - 26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM 601 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education. - 26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM 745 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually? - 27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM 735 Views
T^T - 27/08/2012 04:39:33 AM 661 Views
Is that the emoticon for perky titties? *NM* - 27/08/2012 11:07:06 PM 333 Views
He is an absolute berk. *NM* - 23/08/2012 01:08:58 AM 523 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments. - 23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM 763 Views
Really? *NM* - 23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM 393 Views
Yeah. - 23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM 666 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response. - 23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM 658 Views
Heh, I didn't think so. - 23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM 702 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context. - 23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM 807 Views
Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM 608 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM 682 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM 615 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries. - 23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM 655 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air - 23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM 684 Views
No argument there. - 23/08/2012 11:46:01 PM 690 Views
This - 23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM 691 Views
Okay. I misunderstood. Sorry. *NM* - 23/08/2012 09:58:20 PM 359 Views
Eh - 23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM 636 Views
Well, I didn't take it that way. - 23/08/2012 10:42:01 PM 764 Views
Good - 24/08/2012 02:20:27 AM 714 Views
Ah, I can understand if that is the case. - 23/08/2012 07:46:38 PM 692 Views
I read it the same way Jen did - 23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM 656 Views
Why? - 23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM 674 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it. - 23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM 680 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely. - 23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM 629 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule. - 23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM 659 Views
Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM 632 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM 616 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM 602 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM 702 Views
couple things - 24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM 597 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM 664 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:45:38 PM 587 Views
Re: couple things - 25/08/2012 12:11:03 AM 652 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange. - 24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM 631 Views
Ew. - 24/08/2012 06:56:27 PM 640 Views
Yes, that about covers it. - 24/08/2012 07:42:13 PM 615 Views
Yes, I was talking about Galoway and what he said - 25/08/2012 12:15:15 AM 782 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:34:51 PM 705 Views
I can - 23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM 569 Views
I gotta say I am with Paul - 24/08/2012 12:27:44 AM 674 Views
Hm. - 24/08/2012 02:08:33 AM 587 Views
OK - 23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM 625 Views
Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM 587 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM 776 Views
To start again then Joel - 23/08/2012 11:14:07 PM 606 Views
My mistake then, sorry. - 23/08/2012 11:32:34 PM 647 Views
Agreeing without agreeing. - 23/08/2012 12:24:10 PM 725 Views
I have gotten used to you being right for the wrong reasons. - 23/08/2012 07:42:32 PM 620 Views
Yes - 23/08/2012 06:34:38 AM 761 Views
Indeed - 23/08/2012 08:47:40 PM 604 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets - 23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM 695 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit - 23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM 629 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned - 24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM 618 Views
well, that is where I'm confused. - 24/08/2012 07:03:16 PM 646 Views
Maybe I watch to much CNN - 24/08/2012 07:30:23 PM 586 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well. - 24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM 668 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate. - 24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM 815 Views
Interesting. - 24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM 604 Views
no it isn't kinda true - 24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM 631 Views

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