I'm pretty much going on the assumption here that in such cases, the sleeping person is expected to wake up nearly immediately - if for some reason the sleeping person is so fast asleep that they just keep sleeping, it does rather start to resemble sex with a blow-up doll.
That also goes for the Assange case - I'm operating on the assumption that the woman woke when he started doing that and, presumably, told him to knock it off.
The little Wikipedia research I've done claimed at one point that the victim later amended her statement to saying she had been "half asleep" rather than "asleep", which fits well with my interpretation above. Of course, it might be best not to blindly rely on that.
I don't think it's nonsense to be bothered about the notion of people being accused or even convicted of rape when they were understandably convinced, based on reasonable grounds, that it was consensual. Of course, "reasonable grounds" are impossible to define, but then that's why it's a grey area. Obviously in general it's about consent, not refusal, but in cases where there are "reasonable grounds" to lead one to conclude that it's consensual, it's important for the non-consenting partner to make that refusal clear. And having previously had consensual sex does change one's frame of reference, changes how explicit a consent you'd need to reasonably suppose that sex is welcome.
That also goes for the Assange case - I'm operating on the assumption that the woman woke when he started doing that and, presumably, told him to knock it off.
Now if it has been agreed in advance that it is okay then it isn't or if it is as a result of a misunderstanding - for example one sleepy person thinking the other sleeping person is in a similar state of wakefulness and responding then I think in a relationship it can be seen a mistake.
The little Wikipedia research I've done claimed at one point that the victim later amended her statement to saying she had been "half asleep" rather than "asleep", which fits well with my interpretation above. Of course, it might be best not to blindly rely on that.
I don't see it as a grey area at all - what he did was start having sex with someone who didn't even know what was happening, let alone have a chance to consent (and one of my major issues with Joel is his repeated stating that it hinges on refusal and not consent, which frankly I think any sane person would see as nonsense).
I don't think it's nonsense to be bothered about the notion of people being accused or even convicted of rape when they were understandably convinced, based on reasonable grounds, that it was consensual. Of course, "reasonable grounds" are impossible to define, but then that's why it's a grey area. Obviously in general it's about consent, not refusal, but in cases where there are "reasonable grounds" to lead one to conclude that it's consensual, it's important for the non-consenting partner to make that refusal clear. And having previously had consensual sex does change one's frame of reference, changes how explicit a consent you'd need to reasonably suppose that sex is welcome.
Cuddling up? fair enough. Sex acts on their sleeping body? Utterly wrong.
Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off
22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM
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Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest.
22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM
- 627 Views
That is second on my list of things I remember about him, probably down to third now.
22/08/2012 11:21:17 PM
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People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate
23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM
- 597 Views
Bullshit
23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM
- 502 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway
23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM
- 521 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic.
23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM
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Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments
24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM
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Sure it was, but we can do it your way.
24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM
- 523 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too
24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM
- 537 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led.
24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM
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Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary
24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM
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No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either.
24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM
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I'm not even sure what that means
25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM
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The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads.
25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM
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Okay, we're done here
26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM
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Quotes are not my opinion.
26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM
- 470 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education.
26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM
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Further post-secondary education, you mean; probably so, though not for the reasons you stated.
26/08/2012 08:20:45 PM
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Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually?
27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM
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It has nothing to do with consequences or responsibility. It's about life & privacy. Period
23/08/2012 12:04:55 PM
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To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments.
23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM
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Really? *NM*
23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM
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Yeah.
23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM
- 527 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response.
23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM
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Heh, I didn't think so.
23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM
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I said Akins comments needed MORE context.
23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM
- 655 Views
Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM
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Re: Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM
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Re: Yes, I saw that.
23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM
- 480 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries.
23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM
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And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air
23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM
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This
23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM
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Eh
23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM
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I read it the same way Jen did
23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM
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Why?
23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM
- 541 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it.
23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM
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You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely.
23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM
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I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule.
23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM
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Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM
- 489 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM
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Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM
- 460 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM
- 560 Views
couple things
24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM
- 467 Views
Re: couple things
24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM
- 500 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange.
24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM
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I can
23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM
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OK
23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM
- 479 Views
Bullshit.
23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM
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Re: Bullshit.
23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
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I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets
23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM
- 556 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit
23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM
- 476 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned
24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM
- 475 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well.
24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM
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McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate.
24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM
- 675 Views
Interesting.
24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM
- 466 Views
Yeah, that about covers it; personally, I am developing a grudging respect for Akin.
24/08/2012 06:30:43 AM
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no it isn't kinda true
24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM
- 445 Views
The MO GOP voters who nominated him for being "most conservative" think it is.
25/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
- 480 Views