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Well, I have to clarify... Legolas Send a noteboard - 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM
I'm pretty much going on the assumption here that in such cases, the sleeping person is expected to wake up nearly immediately - if for some reason the sleeping person is so fast asleep that they just keep sleeping, it does rather start to resemble sex with a blow-up doll.

That also goes for the Assange case - I'm operating on the assumption that the woman woke when he started doing that and, presumably, told him to knock it off.
Now if it has been agreed in advance that it is okay then it isn't or if it is as a result of a misunderstanding - for example one sleepy person thinking the other sleeping person is in a similar state of wakefulness and responding then I think in a relationship it can be seen a mistake.

The little Wikipedia research I've done claimed at one point that the victim later amended her statement to saying she had been "half asleep" rather than "asleep", which fits well with my interpretation above. Of course, it might be best not to blindly rely on that.
I don't see it as a grey area at all - what he did was start having sex with someone who didn't even know what was happening, let alone have a chance to consent (and one of my major issues with Joel is his repeated stating that it hinges on refusal and not consent, which frankly I think any sane person would see as nonsense).

I don't think it's nonsense to be bothered about the notion of people being accused or even convicted of rape when they were understandably convinced, based on reasonable grounds, that it was consensual. Of course, "reasonable grounds" are impossible to define, but then that's why it's a grey area. Obviously in general it's about consent, not refusal, but in cases where there are "reasonable grounds" to lead one to conclude that it's consensual, it's important for the non-consenting partner to make that refusal clear. And having previously had consensual sex does change one's frame of reference, changes how explicit a consent you'd need to reasonably suppose that sex is welcome.
Cuddling up? fair enough. Sex acts on their sleeping body? Utterly wrong.
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Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off - 22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM 1056 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest. - 22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM 627 Views
Erm... what on earth is that? - 22/08/2012 11:19:13 PM 448 Views
Celebrity Big Brother in the UK - 22/08/2012 11:22:17 PM 495 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate - 23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM 597 Views
Bullshit - 23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM 502 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway - 23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM 521 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic. - 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM 752 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments - 24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM 454 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way. - 24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM 523 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too - 24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM 537 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led. - 24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM 619 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary - 24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM 572 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either. - 24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM 732 Views
I'm not even sure what that means - 25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM 463 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads. - 25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM 527 Views
Okay, we're done here - 26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM 497 Views
Quotes are not my opinion. - 26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM 470 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education. - 26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM 560 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually? - 27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM 587 Views
T^T - 27/08/2012 04:39:33 AM 514 Views
Is that the emoticon for perky titties? *NM* - 27/08/2012 11:07:06 PM 250 Views
He is an absolute berk. *NM* - 23/08/2012 01:08:58 AM 453 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments. - 23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM 580 Views
Really? *NM* - 23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM 329 Views
Yeah. - 23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM 527 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response. - 23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM 522 Views
Heh, I didn't think so. - 23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM 566 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context. - 23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM 655 Views
Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM 475 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM 503 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM 480 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries. - 23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM 504 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air - 23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM 547 Views
No argument there. - 23/08/2012 11:46:01 PM 537 Views
This - 23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM 551 Views
Okay. I misunderstood. Sorry. *NM* - 23/08/2012 09:58:20 PM 299 Views
Eh - 23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM 494 Views
Well, I didn't take it that way. - 23/08/2012 10:42:01 PM 565 Views
Good - 24/08/2012 02:20:27 AM 563 Views
Ah, I can understand if that is the case. - 23/08/2012 07:46:38 PM 527 Views
I read it the same way Jen did - 23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM 463 Views
Why? - 23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM 541 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it. - 23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM 529 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely. - 23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM 505 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule. - 23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM 515 Views
Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM 489 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM 456 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM 460 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM 560 Views
couple things - 24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM 467 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM 500 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:45:38 PM 448 Views
Re: couple things - 25/08/2012 12:11:03 AM 493 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange. - 24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM 474 Views
Ew. - 24/08/2012 06:56:27 PM 510 Views
Yes, that about covers it. - 24/08/2012 07:42:13 PM 480 Views
Yes, I was talking about Galoway and what he said - 25/08/2012 12:15:15 AM 619 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:34:51 PM 548 Views
I can - 23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM 436 Views
I gotta say I am with Paul - 24/08/2012 12:27:44 AM 535 Views
Hm. - 24/08/2012 02:08:33 AM 451 Views
OK - 23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM 479 Views
Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM 447 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM 639 Views
To start again then Joel - 23/08/2012 11:14:07 PM 464 Views
My mistake then, sorry. - 23/08/2012 11:32:34 PM 501 Views
Agreeing without agreeing. - 23/08/2012 12:24:10 PM 563 Views
I have gotten used to you being right for the wrong reasons. - 23/08/2012 07:42:32 PM 474 Views
Yes - 23/08/2012 06:34:38 AM 631 Views
Indeed - 23/08/2012 08:47:40 PM 458 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets - 23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM 556 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit - 23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM 476 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned - 24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM 475 Views
well, that is where I'm confused. - 24/08/2012 07:03:16 PM 503 Views
Maybe I watch to much CNN - 24/08/2012 07:30:23 PM 452 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well. - 24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM 528 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate. - 24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM 675 Views
Interesting. - 24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM 466 Views
no it isn't kinda true - 24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM 445 Views

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