I'm pretty much going on the assumption here that in such cases, the sleeping person is expected to wake up nearly immediately - if for some reason the sleeping person is so fast asleep that they just keep sleeping, it does rather start to resemble sex with a blow-up doll.
Sorry but I just can't put it more bluntly than this - sticking a penis in a vagina without permission is rape. No ifs, no buts, no maybes - just rape.
And frankly the idea that because a woman consented to have sex with someone once means he can get a free repeat seems totally crazy to me - it is grounds to assume she might be willing to have sex with him again... no way is it grounds to assume he can have sex with her when ever he feels like it.
That also goes for the Assange case - I'm operating on the assumption that the woman woke when he started doing that and, presumably, told him to knock it off.
You mean once he'd started raping her you assumed he was told to knock it off so he stopped raping her? I don't think there is a minimum requirement on how long rape has to last for it to be rape and not just a mistake, it is like assault - it is or it isn't.
The little Wikipedia research I've done claimed at one point that the victim later amended her statement to saying she had been "half asleep" rather than "asleep", which fits well with my interpretation above. Of course, it might be best not to blindly rely on that.
I've just looked and can't see an actual report of where she changed it? Even so, half asleep is a pretty vague term.
I don't think it's nonsense to be bothered about the notion of people being accused or even convicted of rape when they were understandably convinced, based on reasonable grounds, that it was consensual. Of course, "reasonable grounds" are impossible to define, but then that's why it's a grey area. Obviously in general it's about consent, not refusal, but in cases where there are "reasonable grounds" to lead one to conclude that it's consensual, it's important for the non-consenting partner to make that refusal clear. And having previously had consensual sex does change one's frame of reference, changes how explicit a consent you'd need to reasonably suppose that sex is welcome.
See the thing is I flat out disagree here - this is where my blow up doll comment comes in. It is utter nonsense to assume that because she agreed to sex once he could have sex with her whenever he wanted - that is still rape, just the kind that no one cared about 30 years ago.
*MySmiley*
Robert Graves "There is no money in poetry, but then there is no poetry in money, either."
Henning Mankell "We must defend the open society, because if we start locking our doors, if we let fear decide, the person who committed the act of terror will win"
Robert Graves "There is no money in poetry, but then there is no poetry in money, either."
Henning Mankell "We must defend the open society, because if we start locking our doors, if we let fear decide, the person who committed the act of terror will win"
Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off
- 22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM
1080 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest.
- 22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM
650 Views
That is second on my list of things I remember about him, probably down to third now.
- 22/08/2012 11:21:17 PM
570 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate
- 23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM
618 Views
Bullshit
- 23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM
522 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway
- 23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM
545 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic.
- 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM
786 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments
- 24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM
479 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way.
- 24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM
545 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too
- 24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM
557 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led.
- 24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM
637 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary
- 24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM
590 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either.
- 24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM
761 Views
I'm not even sure what that means
- 25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM
483 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads.
- 25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM
555 Views
Okay, we're done here
- 26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM
518 Views
Quotes are not my opinion.
- 26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM
491 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education.
- 26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM
584 Views
Further post-secondary education, you mean; probably so, though not for the reasons you stated.
- 26/08/2012 08:20:45 PM
536 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually?
- 27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM
613 Views
It has nothing to do with consequences or responsibility. It's about life & privacy. Period
- 23/08/2012 12:04:55 PM
641 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments.
- 23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM
606 Views
Really? *NM*
- 23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM
339 Views
Yeah.
- 23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM
547 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response.
- 23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM
541 Views
Heh, I didn't think so.
- 23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM
587 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context.
- 23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM
678 Views
Yes, I saw that.
- 23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM
493 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that.
- 23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM
522 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that.
- 23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM
498 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries.
- 23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM
527 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air
- 23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM
569 Views
This
- 23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM
574 Views
Eh
- 23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM
512 Views
I read it the same way Jen did
- 23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM
480 Views
Why?
- 23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM
561 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it.
- 23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM
555 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely.
- 23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM
522 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule.
- 23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM
538 Views
Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM
507 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM
474 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM
483 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify...
- 23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM
581 Views
couple things
- 24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM
484 Views
Re: couple things
- 24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM
518 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange.
- 24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM
496 Views
I can
- 23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM
455 Views
OK
- 23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM
500 Views
Bullshit.
- 23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM
467 Views
Re: Bullshit.
- 23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
661 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets
- 23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM
575 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit
- 23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM
495 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned
- 24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM
496 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well.
- 24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM
544 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate.
- 24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM
701 Views
Interesting.
- 24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM
485 Views
Yeah, that about covers it; personally, I am developing a grudging respect for Akin.
- 24/08/2012 06:30:43 AM
544 Views
no it isn't kinda true
- 24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM
466 Views
The MO GOP voters who nominated him for being "most conservative" think it is.
- 25/08/2012 10:52:02 PM
503 Views