Active Users:566 Time:01/07/2025 06:49:55 AM
Sure it was, but we can do it your way. Joel Send a noteboard - 24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM
You didn't even touch the arguments and in fact distort the things I said. Again, the logic line goes off the initial assumption that rape exceptions are permitted which requires one to cede that fetus=human.

Actually, such exceptions only require a fetus MAY be human. That uncertainty exists but, IMHO, justifies leaving the judgement call with the person it affects.

So baby steps, lets walk through this, stay on topic with your reply please. If fetus does not equal human then no justification is needed for an abortion, thus no need for a rape exception. Discussing a rape exception requires one to assume there is a need for one, hence fetus=human or no exception needed... if so then:

1) If fetus = human then one can not end the life without justification.

Agree or disagree?

Agreed. I followed your logic, and responded to it; just not with agreement.

First, the burden you reference is not solely psychological: Parenthood creates two-decade finanical burdens of feeding, clothing, housing, providing healthcare for and often educating a child. That is burdensome without impairing decision making, and thus obviates the remaining discussion. However....

Even were the burden purely psychological you made it an invalid Catch 22: Any burden justifying abortion renders women incompetent to consent, and no less burden can justify it. Having cause denies cause; cute, but false. Many situations cause great stress without removing legal competence to respond (in medical decisions concerning oneself or family, often.) Claiming women with just cause for abortion are "not of sound mind where the decision is being made" is gross overstatement.

Following from assertions abortion is motivated by psychological burdens making women unfit to decide on it, you concluded abortion doctors retain unburdened objective rationality, and are thus legally accountable. You completely ignored the role of the doctors primary concern (their patients interests,) assuming the only motive is an "irrational" persons (your word, not mine) request. Therefore, you concluded, doctors have no "legal or ethical protection" for peforming abortion.

Apart from three huge oversights, that is a fine argument abortion should never be legal if a fetus is a being. Yet if abortion is UNjustifiable homicide, any measure to prevent that unlawful killing is legal, up to and including "killing the killers," as the Army of God put it. Or as their manifesto more eloquently says, "We the undersigned, declare the justice of taking all Godly action necessary, including the use of force, to defend innocent human life (born and unborn)."

I understood your logic, and responded to it: As I said, it is a very dangerous rationale, even apart from the flaws previously noted.
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Rape - British left wing politician takes on American right wing politician in stupidest comment off - 22/08/2012 11:03:50 PM 1053 Views
Galloway - I'll always remember him for being a Cat to be honest. - 22/08/2012 11:14:58 PM 624 Views
Erm... what on earth is that? - 22/08/2012 11:19:13 PM 446 Views
Celebrity Big Brother in the UK - 22/08/2012 11:22:17 PM 493 Views
People who support abortion only for rape are the most retarded in the whole debate - 23/08/2012 01:05:17 AM 595 Views
Bullshit - 23/08/2012 05:01:24 AM 499 Views
That's an interesting variation with some legitimacy, though not compelling, to me anyway - 23/08/2012 07:25:50 AM 518 Views
That is a dangerous line of logic. - 23/08/2012 09:26:25 PM 750 Views
Okay, that really wasn't connected to my comments - 24/08/2012 02:39:21 AM 451 Views
Sure it was, but we can do it your way. - 24/08/2012 04:10:37 AM 521 Views
Yet you don't, you jump the gun here too - 24/08/2012 04:37:02 AM 536 Views
I was trying to cut to the chase; like I say, I followed your logic: I just disliked where it led. - 24/08/2012 06:10:40 AM 616 Views
Disliking the conclusion doesn't invalidate the logic, and stop veering out of the debate boundary - 24/08/2012 06:43:43 AM 569 Views
No, the logics invalidity does that, though you do not seem to like its conclusion either. - 24/08/2012 07:48:21 AM 731 Views
I'm not even sure what that means - 25/08/2012 12:38:56 AM 462 Views
The logic is invalid because invalid, however either of us feels about where it leads. - 25/08/2012 10:37:34 PM 524 Views
Okay, we're done here - 26/08/2012 05:36:28 AM 494 Views
Quotes are not my opinion. - 26/08/2012 06:37:19 AM 467 Views
You'd really benefit from post-secondary education. - 26/08/2012 12:14:02 PM 557 Views
Haven't you and Joel had about the same amount of post-secondary education, actually? - 27/08/2012 01:31:43 AM 585 Views
T^T - 27/08/2012 04:39:33 AM 509 Views
Is that the emoticon for perky titties? *NM* - 27/08/2012 11:07:06 PM 249 Views
He is an absolute berk. *NM* - 23/08/2012 01:08:58 AM 452 Views
To be honest, I think people MIGHT be overreacting to both comments. - 23/08/2012 01:33:54 AM 577 Views
Really? *NM* - 23/08/2012 06:33:46 AM 328 Views
Yeah. - 23/08/2012 06:40:05 AM 525 Views
I expect it is more of a "stating the obvious" response. - 23/08/2012 02:01:18 PM 519 Views
Heh, I didn't think so. - 23/08/2012 05:44:55 PM 563 Views
I said Akins comments needed MORE context. - 23/08/2012 08:50:09 PM 653 Views
Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 10:28:50 PM 473 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:04:40 PM 500 Views
Re: Yes, I saw that. - 23/08/2012 11:08:46 PM 477 Views
Science sometimes produces shocking discoveries. - 23/08/2012 11:28:47 PM 501 Views
And sometimes one doctor with an agenda pulls "facts" out of the air - 23/08/2012 11:37:37 PM 545 Views
No argument there. - 23/08/2012 11:46:01 PM 534 Views
This - 23/08/2012 08:50:43 PM 548 Views
Okay. I misunderstood. Sorry. *NM* - 23/08/2012 09:58:20 PM 299 Views
Eh - 23/08/2012 10:37:15 PM 494 Views
Well, I didn't take it that way. - 23/08/2012 10:42:01 PM 562 Views
Good - 24/08/2012 02:20:27 AM 562 Views
Ah, I can understand if that is the case. - 23/08/2012 07:46:38 PM 526 Views
I read it the same way Jen did - 23/08/2012 08:49:16 PM 460 Views
Why? - 23/08/2012 08:51:59 PM 539 Views
See your reply here - the bit before the comma then the bit after it. - 23/08/2012 09:06:20 PM 527 Views
You can see where there's room for doubt in that though, surely. - 23/08/2012 09:20:19 PM 502 Views
I accept there are exceptions under some circumstances - but they are exceptions, not the rule. - 23/08/2012 09:44:36 PM 513 Views
Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:28:13 PM 486 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 10:50:59 PM 453 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:15:50 PM 458 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:28:56 PM 557 Views
couple things - 24/08/2012 01:57:04 AM 465 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:26:23 PM 497 Views
Re: couple things - 24/08/2012 02:45:38 PM 445 Views
Re: couple things - 25/08/2012 12:11:03 AM 490 Views
You may be talking about Galloway and not Assange, but Galloway was talking about Assange. - 24/08/2012 06:28:00 PM 472 Views
Ew. - 24/08/2012 06:56:27 PM 508 Views
Yes, that about covers it. - 24/08/2012 07:42:13 PM 478 Views
Yes, I was talking about Galoway and what he said - 25/08/2012 12:15:15 AM 616 Views
Re: Well, I have to clarify... - 23/08/2012 11:34:51 PM 545 Views
I can - 23/08/2012 11:05:05 PM 433 Views
I gotta say I am with Paul - 24/08/2012 12:27:44 AM 532 Views
Hm. - 24/08/2012 02:08:33 AM 450 Views
OK - 23/08/2012 09:35:35 PM 476 Views
Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:00:54 PM 446 Views
Re: Bullshit. - 23/08/2012 10:52:02 PM 638 Views
To start again then Joel - 23/08/2012 11:14:07 PM 461 Views
My mistake then, sorry. - 23/08/2012 11:32:34 PM 499 Views
Agreeing without agreeing. - 23/08/2012 12:24:10 PM 560 Views
I have gotten used to you being right for the wrong reasons. - 23/08/2012 07:42:32 PM 471 Views
Yes - 23/08/2012 06:34:38 AM 628 Views
Indeed - 23/08/2012 08:47:40 PM 455 Views
I don't know about Galloway but Akin is being made to pay for his commnets - 23/08/2012 04:37:12 PM 554 Views
Um, I'm not sure about that last bit - 23/08/2012 10:43:15 PM 474 Views
this issue has been discussed none stop for two days and this almost never mentioned - 24/08/2012 12:28:25 PM 472 Views
well, that is where I'm confused. - 24/08/2012 07:03:16 PM 501 Views
Maybe I watch to much CNN - 24/08/2012 07:30:23 PM 449 Views
Yeah, I'm curious about that last point as well. - 24/08/2012 02:53:43 AM 526 Views
McCaskills campaign ran ads during the GOP primary calling Akin the "most conservative" candidate. - 24/08/2012 03:33:18 AM 672 Views
Interesting. - 24/08/2012 04:49:51 AM 463 Views
no it isn't kinda true - 24/08/2012 12:50:53 PM 442 Views

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