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there is a difference between statistical errors and model or method errors random thoughts Send a noteboard - 05/10/2012 03:28:38 AM
The margin of error simply tells you from a statistical point of view what the sampling error of a theoretically representative subgroup being applied to larger group. That is not a belief system that is math and that is why it is called the law of averages and not the theory of averages. If you flip a coin a million times and the coin is perfectly balanced you will get very very close to 50% heads and 50% tails. That isn’t a theory it is a well understand and well proven mathematical theorem.


When you average multiple polls you increase the overall sample thus deceasing the statistical noise inherent in applying the results of sub set to larger group. The problem is that model is only theoretically representative of the larger group and the low margin of error is dependent on the accuracy of that model. Pollsters have a model of what they believe that larger group to look like and they weight their results to makes them match the model. Mostly they use previous election turnouts as a reference for those models. The problem is which election to use and how to tweak them to get a sample the pollster believes to be correct. Those model errors are not factored into the margin of error though because they are not noise and sample size isn't a factor.

For most of my adult life I have taken measurements for a living and I very familiar with noise in a measurement causing errors. The way to overcome that is to increase your sample and then average. It works and I have seen it work more than enough times to know it is not a belief system. Systematic errors on the other hand cause repeating errors in the measurement and no amount of sampling or averaging will correct for that. If your voltmeter reads 2% high then the average of all your measurements will be 2% off and more sampling will only get you closer to that 2% error. If a pollster were to sample 30 million people, 10% of the country, he would publish an error rate of virtually zero but that doesn’t mean his true error will be virtually zero since that error rate doesn’t take into account the errors in his model not to mention the errors created by the question order or wording. That is why two polls can differ by more than their combined margin of error.

You are putting way to much faith and weight into the idea of published margin of error and what it does or doesn’t tell us. Even with the margin of error and modeling errors we can get a good idea of the trajectory of a race and the impact of an event on the race. If next week the average of the polls show that Romney is doing 3 points better than he was doing this week then that is very strong evidence that the race has moved by about 3 points in his direction regardless of the margin of error or even the model errors, assuming they don’t tweak the models. How close those polls will end up being to the actual results is another story and much more dependent on modeling error than on the published margin of error. Many of the polls out there are being based on the 2008 exit poll numbers but that was a very unusual election and the inaccuracy of the exit polls tell us they were poorly done to begin with. Since both of those things tend to favor a model that favors Obama I predict he will underperform the polls, like he did in 2008. Now that is a belief and not a scientifically proven fact, likely to be right but still unproven.
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Romney CRUSHES Obama in First Debate - Leads Swing States by 4% - 04/10/2012 05:32:32 AM 1153 Views
So, is that from a "corrected", "non-skewed" poll? - 04/10/2012 05:51:58 AM 683 Views
Nope, I checked Betfair, the odds on Romney continue to drift - 04/10/2012 10:02:16 AM 756 Views
Wow, you suck at Googling! - 04/10/2012 01:14:22 PM 871 Views
No, you just apparently suck at math - 04/10/2012 07:17:20 PM 631 Views
I know you are sad, but your Messiah may still win.....you never know! - 04/10/2012 07:23:16 PM 702 Views
I'm more of a syndicalist, sorry - 04/10/2012 08:43:48 PM 724 Views
Ooh, would you mind talking more about syndicalism? - 04/10/2012 11:28:40 PM 637 Views
It really should be mandatory for everyone to read factcheck.org after every debate. *NM* - 04/10/2012 09:38:24 AM 385 Views
Seriously. The number of times I squinted and thought, "Wait, that doesn't sound quite right" - 04/10/2012 02:01:12 PM 757 Views
Romney addressed that head-on - 04/10/2012 02:13:44 PM 661 Views
Yeah, that "20 million" comment raised my eyebrows. - 04/10/2012 04:15:49 PM 1027 Views
Why are you not counting the elderly? - 04/10/2012 07:33:28 PM 923 Views
Obama - Lost and Bewildered without Teleprompter.....funny stuff! - 04/10/2012 01:10:40 PM 690 Views
A2000, your message should read: - 04/10/2012 03:42:18 PM 721 Views
I consider the margin of error implied. - 04/10/2012 05:49:50 PM 608 Views
Unfortunately statistics does not support that. - 04/10/2012 06:11:56 PM 723 Views
Of course they do; the law of averages supports that. - 04/10/2012 06:46:27 PM 758 Views
Poll numbers aren't random so even if the law of averages could be applied to a small data set... - 04/10/2012 07:05:49 PM 635 Views
that is why you can't base things on just one poll - 05/10/2012 01:27:18 AM 818 Views
You are making the same mistake Joel is making. You should read our discussion. *NM* - 05/10/2012 01:50:01 AM 466 Views
there is a difference between statistical errors and model or method errors - 05/10/2012 03:28:38 AM 709 Views
There is a difference between the law of averages and the law of large numbers. - 05/10/2012 04:45:00 AM 903 Views
can wait for Ryan vs Bozo the VP - 04/10/2012 06:07:30 PM 586 Views
+1 - that debate is going to be comical! - 04/10/2012 07:24:26 PM 692 Views
I would end up with alchohol posioning *NM* - 04/10/2012 10:16:51 PM 426 Views
If Biden performs as expected... - 04/10/2012 07:46:16 PM 728 Views
your take on obama's foreign policy debate performance does not seem like reality - 04/10/2012 08:00:51 PM 660 Views
I never would have thought Romney could lay such a beatdown on Obama as I saw last night. - 04/10/2012 08:55:46 PM 742 Views
we saw the anti-romney last night. i doubt obama is going to be so flat-footed against him next time - 04/10/2012 10:35:21 PM 668 Views
Hilarious. - 04/10/2012 11:20:32 PM 638 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 05/10/2012 12:27:33 AM 628 Views
Why can it not be both? - 05/10/2012 12:58:59 PM 768 Views
who would you consider our number one geopolitical foe? - 04/10/2012 10:12:53 PM 759 Views
China is far more dangerous. *NM* - 05/10/2012 07:23:06 AM 326 Views
Whoa, was not expecting that point of agreement. - 05/10/2012 12:35:35 PM 773 Views
I'm not frightened of them, but they're hardly an ally. *NM* - 05/10/2012 03:55:45 PM 421 Views
I am not frightened, but am concerned. - 06/10/2012 01:27:40 PM 756 Views
they may be more dangerous but that doesn't that doesn't automatically make them first - 05/10/2012 01:09:30 PM 749 Views
That's fair enough. *NM* - 05/10/2012 03:54:56 PM 367 Views
WOW - Even the liberal CNN Poll confirms Romney's crushing victory. - 04/10/2012 07:27:28 PM 776 Views
I could have crushed either of them in that debate - 04/10/2012 09:26:07 PM 754 Views
I watched it now. A few thoughts (albeit rather late): - 05/10/2012 09:46:02 PM 815 Views
You are correct on all points. - 07/10/2012 03:12:51 AM 924 Views
"There is no Soviet domination of Eastern Europe." - 07/10/2012 02:03:49 PM 1209 Views
you are missing a key point - 07/10/2012 04:34:17 PM 716 Views
Am I missing that point? I thought I said clearly enough that I thought Romney was better. *NM* - 07/10/2012 08:47:42 PM 431 Views
maybe, seemed that way to me - 08/10/2012 03:18:18 PM 695 Views

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