you left out part of that wiki quote you pasted
random thoughts Send a noteboard - 05/10/2012 05:30:52 AM
"Typical applications of the law also generally assume no bias in the underlying probability distribution, which is frequently at odds with the empirical evidence"
I think I covered that very extensively and made it crystal clear that I was differentiating between true random errors (noise) and and underlying bias in the distribution, that was the part about models errors. If you don't like to use the lay term and prefer to use LNN that is fine but it really does nothing to undermine my previous argument. If the sample is larger, which it is in when you average more polls, then the margin of error will be reduced and the published margin of error of the individual polls are no longer valid since in effect you have a new poll with a larger sample. Errors in polls that are not the result of sample size will not be averaged out by multiple polls, which is where the bias in the underlying probability distribution part comes into play. If your model over weights or middle aged men living in their mom's basement no amount of sampling will overcome that but it also isn't reflect in the published margin of error and since it will be reflected in all of your polls so it won't affect your trends.
Using your example if one poll that gives you 48 to 52 and then you conduct that poll over and over multiple time and get and average answer of 50 to 50 then the true answer is much more likely to be 50-50 and the margin of errors for those combined polls will be lower than 4 points of the original poll. If your polls model is improperly weighted and gives one candidate an unearned 2 point advantage then your averages will end up closer to 48-52 and that will have nothing to do with your margin of error.
The margin of error is only where the results will be the majority of the time. If you have a poll with a margin of error of 4 it is completely within the realm of possibility that actual sample error is 15 but it is just very unlikely. It is representing a bell curve so while the margin may be 4 points statistically there is more likelihood that the error will be 1 point and the more polls you have the more polls you will have that are closer to the true number.
It is true that polls are only so useful and they have errors, some more significant than the sample errors, that make them of limited value. Just changing the time of day that you poll will change the results since different people will be available and give you different results. But they are still the best tool we have for judging the state of a race and they do show trends in support of the candidates. You can see trends show up in multiple polls as the result of real events in the campaign and if you average multiple polls you can see the trends in finer detail than any in any of the published margin of error of the polls.
This really is pretty straight forward stuff and sampling is a well understood science.
I think I covered that very extensively and made it crystal clear that I was differentiating between true random errors (noise) and and underlying bias in the distribution, that was the part about models errors. If you don't like to use the lay term and prefer to use LNN that is fine but it really does nothing to undermine my previous argument. If the sample is larger, which it is in when you average more polls, then the margin of error will be reduced and the published margin of error of the individual polls are no longer valid since in effect you have a new poll with a larger sample. Errors in polls that are not the result of sample size will not be averaged out by multiple polls, which is where the bias in the underlying probability distribution part comes into play. If your model over weights or middle aged men living in their mom's basement no amount of sampling will overcome that but it also isn't reflect in the published margin of error and since it will be reflected in all of your polls so it won't affect your trends.
Using your example if one poll that gives you 48 to 52 and then you conduct that poll over and over multiple time and get and average answer of 50 to 50 then the true answer is much more likely to be 50-50 and the margin of errors for those combined polls will be lower than 4 points of the original poll. If your polls model is improperly weighted and gives one candidate an unearned 2 point advantage then your averages will end up closer to 48-52 and that will have nothing to do with your margin of error.
The margin of error is only where the results will be the majority of the time. If you have a poll with a margin of error of 4 it is completely within the realm of possibility that actual sample error is 15 but it is just very unlikely. It is representing a bell curve so while the margin may be 4 points statistically there is more likelihood that the error will be 1 point and the more polls you have the more polls you will have that are closer to the true number.
It is true that polls are only so useful and they have errors, some more significant than the sample errors, that make them of limited value. Just changing the time of day that you poll will change the results since different people will be available and give you different results. But they are still the best tool we have for judging the state of a race and they do show trends in support of the candidates. You can see trends show up in multiple polls as the result of real events in the campaign and if you average multiple polls you can see the trends in finer detail than any in any of the published margin of error of the polls.
This really is pretty straight forward stuff and sampling is a well understood science.
Romney CRUSHES Obama in First Debate - Leads Swing States by 4%
04/10/2012 05:32:32 AM
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So, is that from a "corrected", "non-skewed" poll?
04/10/2012 05:51:58 AM
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Wow, you suck at Googling!
04/10/2012 01:14:22 PM
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Which poll at your link shows anything but Obama leading every swing state but NC?
04/10/2012 05:41:31 PM
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No, you just apparently suck at math
04/10/2012 07:17:20 PM
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I know you are sad, but your Messiah may still win.....you never know!
04/10/2012 07:23:16 PM
- 659 Views
your mental instability and misperception of reality are worrisome -- please seek professional help
04/10/2012 07:54:45 PM
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I'm more of a syndicalist, sorry
04/10/2012 08:43:48 PM
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Ooh, would you mind talking more about syndicalism?
04/10/2012 11:28:40 PM
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Sure, but I'm no doctrainaire on this
05/10/2012 01:13:19 AM
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Thank you!
Reading the wikipedia entry was making my eyes glaze over. But I can try again now. *NM*
05/10/2012 02:14:50 PM
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It really should be mandatory for everyone to read factcheck.org after every debate. *NM*
04/10/2012 09:38:24 AM
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Seriously. The number of times I squinted and thought, "Wait, that doesn't sound quite right"
04/10/2012 02:01:12 PM
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Romney addressed that head-on
04/10/2012 02:13:44 PM
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Yeah, but it ain't, and it was Obamas job to make that unnecessary.
04/10/2012 03:26:50 PM
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Obama - Lost and Bewildered without Teleprompter.....funny stuff!
04/10/2012 01:10:40 PM
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Which part of Romneys socialism was your favorite?
04/10/2012 03:38:17 PM
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I keep thinking that was what killed Obama.
04/10/2012 04:45:02 PM
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I suspected that was a lot of it, yeah, but he should have been prepared for the Etch-a-Sketch.
04/10/2012 05:25:35 PM
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living in a bubble where everyone agreed on those things and is what killed him
04/10/2012 05:59:29 PM
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why do you silly lefites keep acting like Romney is the first guy to move to the center?
04/10/2012 05:46:13 PM
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The primary was six months ago, and endorsing every aspect of limited welfare states is not centrist
04/10/2012 06:00:56 PM
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can you support that insane argument? *NM*
05/10/2012 01:10:11 PM
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Romney explicitly endorsed regulations, soaking the rich, entitlements and public education funding.
05/10/2012 02:25:49 PM
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you could have just said no
05/10/2012 05:25:44 PM
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Since when was Romney (or any Republican since TRs day) for more regulation or hiring more teachers?
06/10/2012 01:33:53 PM
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Well Bush was pushing for more banking regulations but Barney Franks blocked him
07/10/2012 03:52:50 PM
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A2000, your message should read:
04/10/2012 03:42:18 PM
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I consider the margin of error implied.
04/10/2012 05:49:50 PM
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Unfortunately statistics does not support that.
04/10/2012 06:11:56 PM
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Of course they do; the law of averages supports that.
04/10/2012 06:46:27 PM
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Poll numbers aren't random so even if the law of averages could be applied to a small data set...
04/10/2012 07:05:49 PM
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If not random, they are indicative (if not necessary conclusive,) and the data set is large enough.
04/10/2012 08:55:24 PM
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Let me rephrase: the law of averages is a belief. You are basing your conclusion on a belief.
04/10/2012 09:23:50 PM
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I have never used the Law of Averages to mean anything except the (proven) Law of Large Numbers.
05/10/2012 09:22:56 AM
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I'm pretty sure that 136 is not a large number. *NM*
05/10/2012 12:20:35 PM
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That is a matter of opinion, but for a binary event I think it huge.
05/10/2012 12:42:24 PM
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Without additional data, the default would be that the coin is fair. Since...
05/10/2012 05:20:21 PM
- 628 Views
After 136 trials the DEFAULT assumption no longer applies in the face of ample hard data.
06/10/2012 04:02:51 PM
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I did the same experiment I suggested for you.
06/10/2012 04:45:28 PM
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Still not a 3:1 ratio.
06/10/2012 06:09:00 PM
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Let me try and put it a slightly different way.
06/10/2012 08:12:35 PM
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The more lopsided/large the trial, the more LIKELY the coin is unfair;weight is the only way to KNOW
07/10/2012 12:09:27 PM
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You're completely missing the point.
07/10/2012 03:34:29 PM
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But 100 polls isn't analogous to 100 coin flips. Each of thousands of individuals is a coin flip.
07/10/2012 11:05:13 PM
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that is why you can't base things on just one poll
05/10/2012 01:27:18 AM
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You are making the same mistake Joel is making. You should read our discussion. *NM*
05/10/2012 01:50:01 AM
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there is a difference between statistical errors and model or method errors
05/10/2012 03:28:38 AM
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There is a difference between the law of averages and the law of large numbers.
05/10/2012 04:45:00 AM
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you left out part of that wiki quote you pasted
05/10/2012 05:30:52 AM
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You still haven't justified the application of the law of large numbers.
05/10/2012 12:24:51 PM
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I suggest you take some time to understand what I wrote and get back to me
05/10/2012 01:12:03 PM
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I obviously must have missed where you justified the use of the law of large numbers.
05/10/2012 04:43:51 PM
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WellI did that twice and I am waiting for you to refute what I said *NM*
05/10/2012 05:28:18 PM
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Since you are unwilling to be helpful...
05/10/2012 05:50:47 PM
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The law is a trend throughout, not a pass/fail based on if the number of polls is "large enough"
06/10/2012 03:26:33 PM
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I'm not saying that the law of large numbers doesn't make the margin of error less when...
06/10/2012 04:55:16 PM
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decades of polling history say you are wrong
07/10/2012 04:08:45 PM
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Stating that, "decades of polling history say you are wrong" doesn't prove your point.
07/10/2012 05:35:57 PM
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you are either ignoring what I am saying or you are mentally unable to understand it so I am done
07/10/2012 06:11:22 PM
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As you wish. I'm starting to get the same feeling from you as well. So whatever. But before you go..
07/10/2012 07:20:17 PM
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can wait for Ryan vs Bozo the VP
04/10/2012 06:07:30 PM
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If Biden performs as expected...
04/10/2012 07:46:16 PM
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your take on obama's foreign policy debate performance does not seem like reality
04/10/2012 08:00:51 PM
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I never would have thought Romney could lay such a beatdown on Obama as I saw last night.
04/10/2012 08:55:46 PM
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we saw the anti-romney last night. i doubt obama is going to be so flat-footed against him next time
04/10/2012 10:35:21 PM
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by that you mean he isn't the Romney the left tried to pretend he was and now they are mad
05/10/2012 12:53:00 AM
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right.... that whole 47% thing is a totally moderate position for a politician to take...
*NM*
05/10/2012 04:32:25 AM
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about as moderate as thinking the government didn't help New Orleans because it has a lot of blacks
05/10/2012 04:51:15 AM
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if you only have obama's comments from LAST election in 2008 then you have nothing
05/10/2012 03:38:07 PM
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who would you consider our number one geopolitical foe?
04/10/2012 10:12:53 PM
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China is far more dangerous. *NM*
05/10/2012 07:23:06 AM
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Whoa, was not expecting that point of agreement.
05/10/2012 12:35:35 PM
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they may be more dangerous but that doesn't that doesn't automatically make them first
05/10/2012 01:09:30 PM
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name two foreign policy decisions russia has blocked since 2008 *NM*
05/10/2012 03:41:15 PM
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It's generally both of them, really, isn't it?
05/10/2012 10:03:39 PM
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Agreed; much of it is that both China and Russia profit handsomely from nuclear proliferation.
06/10/2012 01:55:21 PM
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They both block us in the Middle East but Russia blocks us in Europe o a much larger degree
07/10/2012 04:22:40 PM
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WOW - Even the liberal CNN Poll confirms Romney's crushing victory.
04/10/2012 07:27:28 PM
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I watched it now. A few thoughts (albeit rather late):
05/10/2012 09:46:02 PM
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you are missing a key point
07/10/2012 04:34:17 PM
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Am I missing that point? I thought I said clearly enough that I thought Romney was better. *NM*
07/10/2012 08:47:42 PM
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