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you left out part of that wiki quote you pasted random thoughts Send a noteboard - 05/10/2012 05:30:52 AM
"Typical applications of the law also generally assume no bias in the underlying probability distribution, which is frequently at odds with the empirical evidence"

I think I covered that very extensively and made it crystal clear that I was differentiating between true random errors (noise) and and underlying bias in the distribution, that was the part about models errors. If you don't like to use the lay term and prefer to use LNN that is fine but it really does nothing to undermine my previous argument. If the sample is larger, which it is in when you average more polls, then the margin of error will be reduced and the published margin of error of the individual polls are no longer valid since in effect you have a new poll with a larger sample. Errors in polls that are not the result of sample size will not be averaged out by multiple polls, which is where the bias in the underlying probability distribution part comes into play. If your model over weights or middle aged men living in their mom's basement no amount of sampling will overcome that but it also isn't reflect in the published margin of error and since it will be reflected in all of your polls so it won't affect your trends.

Using your example if one poll that gives you 48 to 52 and then you conduct that poll over and over multiple time and get and average answer of 50 to 50 then the true answer is much more likely to be 50-50 and the margin of errors for those combined polls will be lower than 4 points of the original poll. If your polls model is improperly weighted and gives one candidate an unearned 2 point advantage then your averages will end up closer to 48-52 and that will have nothing to do with your margin of error.

The margin of error is only where the results will be the majority of the time. If you have a poll with a margin of error of 4 it is completely within the realm of possibility that actual sample error is 15 but it is just very unlikely. It is representing a bell curve so while the margin may be 4 points statistically there is more likelihood that the error will be 1 point and the more polls you have the more polls you will have that are closer to the true number.

It is true that polls are only so useful and they have errors, some more significant than the sample errors, that make them of limited value. Just changing the time of day that you poll will change the results since different people will be available and give you different results. But they are still the best tool we have for judging the state of a race and they do show trends in support of the candidates. You can see trends show up in multiple polls as the result of real events in the campaign and if you average multiple polls you can see the trends in finer detail than any in any of the published margin of error of the polls.


This really is pretty straight forward stuff and sampling is a well understood science.
try reading this wiki article
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Romney CRUSHES Obama in First Debate - Leads Swing States by 4% - 04/10/2012 05:32:32 AM 1120 Views
So, is that from a "corrected", "non-skewed" poll? - 04/10/2012 05:51:58 AM 631 Views
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A2000, your message should read: - 04/10/2012 03:42:18 PM 669 Views
I consider the margin of error implied. - 04/10/2012 05:49:50 PM 573 Views
Unfortunately statistics does not support that. - 04/10/2012 06:11:56 PM 687 Views
Of course they do; the law of averages supports that. - 04/10/2012 06:46:27 PM 718 Views
Poll numbers aren't random so even if the law of averages could be applied to a small data set... - 04/10/2012 07:05:49 PM 597 Views
that is why you can't base things on just one poll - 05/10/2012 01:27:18 AM 774 Views
You are making the same mistake Joel is making. You should read our discussion. *NM* - 05/10/2012 01:50:01 AM 449 Views
there is a difference between statistical errors and model or method errors - 05/10/2012 03:28:38 AM 658 Views
There is a difference between the law of averages and the law of large numbers. - 05/10/2012 04:45:00 AM 854 Views
you left out part of that wiki quote you pasted - 05/10/2012 05:30:52 AM 799 Views
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Hilarious. - 04/10/2012 11:20:32 PM 583 Views
Re: Hilarious. - 05/10/2012 12:27:33 AM 592 Views
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who would you consider our number one geopolitical foe? - 04/10/2012 10:12:53 PM 709 Views
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Whoa, was not expecting that point of agreement. - 05/10/2012 12:35:35 PM 738 Views
I'm not frightened of them, but they're hardly an ally. *NM* - 05/10/2012 03:55:45 PM 406 Views
I am not frightened, but am concerned. - 06/10/2012 01:27:40 PM 710 Views
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That's fair enough. *NM* - 05/10/2012 03:54:56 PM 352 Views
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I could have crushed either of them in that debate - 04/10/2012 09:26:07 PM 720 Views
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you are missing a key point - 07/10/2012 04:34:17 PM 679 Views
Am I missing that point? I thought I said clearly enough that I thought Romney was better. *NM* - 07/10/2012 08:47:42 PM 413 Views
maybe, seemed that way to me - 08/10/2012 03:18:18 PM 656 Views

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