After 136 trials the DEFAULT assumption no longer applies in the face of ample hard data.
Joel Send a noteboard - 06/10/2012 04:02:51 PM
...typically coins are effectively random. It is rare to find a non-effectively random coin.
I really don't want to get into explaining sample size and how to calculate it. I'm tired. Long day yesterday, didn't sleep well last night, had a test first thing this morning.
But if you want to see for yourself if your sample size is large enough. Find a quarter and conduct five to ten tests. Flipping the coin 100 times each test. Count the number of heads for each test and calculate the percentage of heads for each test. You should see how much the percentages vary. It isn't until you get around 1000 flips per test that you start to see percentages that are close together.
I really don't want to get into explaining sample size and how to calculate it. I'm tired. Long day yesterday, didn't sleep well last night, had a test first thing this morning.
But if you want to see for yourself if your sample size is large enough. Find a quarter and conduct five to ten tests. Flipping the coin 100 times each test. Count the number of heads for each test and calculate the percentage of heads for each test. You should see how much the percentages vary. It isn't until you get around 1000 flips per test that you start to see percentages that are close together.
I preface this by saying you owe me an hour of life spent verifying things I already knew. I only did the minimum 500 flips because there were no surprises. Anyway:
Trial 1: H 52% T 48% (H+4)
Trial 2: H 44% T 56% (T+12)
Trial 3: H 47% T 53% (T+6)
Trial 4: H 40% T 60% (T+20)
Trial 5: H 48% T 52% (T+4)
The difference was <10% in the majority of cases, <20% in all but one, and never anywhere NEAR 50%. In fact, rather than matching the 3:1 margin of national polls Obama led outright (i.e. giving Romney the 8% of ties,) the most lopsided result in 5 trials of 100 tosses was 1.5:1.
That one was instructive though, because it was the starkest example of another well known phenomenon: The process' randomness makes a lead of significant size hard to surmount. In trial 4, the ratio of tails:heads peaked at 34:19, nearly 2:1. The ratio through the remainder of the trial was (obviously) a more even 26:21, but only increased the final margin (yet lowered the final ratio.) Which, of course, is why journalists usually project election winners well before 100% of votes are counted: Once early returns give a candidate a lead so large opponents need a prohibitively large number of remaining votes, the candidate may be safely declared the victor.
That is not to say there are never exceptions; in trial 5 heads opened a lead of 11 after just over 40 tosses, but tails came back in the final 30, took the lead on toss 93, and won 5 of the last 7 to finish ahead by 4. Which, of course, means that the nearly 2:1 edge heads had after a SMALL number of tosses evened out to 50±2% after a LARGE number. It also means that since the FL debacle in 2000 US journalists have been VERY hesitant to call elections unless absolutely sure of the outcome. To clarify "absolutely sure," once tails trailed 11% with 41% counted, it took tails on a whopping 39 of the remaining 59 tosses (nearly 2:1) to give it that meager 4% final margin. Moral (which I can attest from decades of election watching:) Candidates who lead 10+% with >40% of votes counted almost ALWAYS win.
If we take all 500 throws together, of course, we end up with a final tally of H 231 T 269 (T+38,) or H 46% T 54% (T+8%.) Not 50/50, but exactly 250 H/T is extremely unlikely. The majority of trials varied even less than that 8%, but the two outliers (especially trial 4) pushed the total variance higher. It still never reached anything like a 3:1 ratio, and only a single trial reached even half that ratio (had I done another 36 tosses to reach a full 136, I am nearly certain that ratio would fall, since ~18+60 will more often than not be less than 21.6+60.) If I ever do get 75 heads/tails in 100 tosses, I will therefore assume the coin is weighted to the other side.
Perhaps the biggest thing to take away from this is that Obama does not simply lead a large AMOUNT of this years presidential pollls, but a large RATIO. The plurality of polls Obama leads is a relative thing, proportionate to the total number of polls taken: The ratio of polls he wins to polls Romney wins inherently includes that factor, and as the total number of polls grows, a lopsided ratio is strongly indicative of a genuine advantage for Obama. To win 3/4 polls, Obamas support must be strong enough it usually sustains him even against errors in Romneys favor rather than his.
Binomial expansion is neither new nor difficult; what took me a few months was coming up with a general POLYnomial expansion theorem.

Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
This message last edited by Joel on 06/10/2012 at 04:42:05 PM
Romney CRUSHES Obama in First Debate - Leads Swing States by 4%
04/10/2012 05:32:32 AM
- 1120 Views
So, is that from a "corrected", "non-skewed" poll?
04/10/2012 05:51:58 AM
- 631 Views

Wow, you suck at Googling!
04/10/2012 01:14:22 PM
- 829 Views

Which poll at your link shows anything but Obama leading every swing state but NC?
04/10/2012 05:41:31 PM
- 742 Views
No, you just apparently suck at math
04/10/2012 07:17:20 PM
- 593 Views

I know you are sad, but your Messiah may still win.....you never know!
04/10/2012 07:23:16 PM
- 659 Views
your mental instability and misperception of reality are worrisome -- please seek professional help
04/10/2012 07:54:45 PM
- 748 Views
I'm more of a syndicalist, sorry
04/10/2012 08:43:48 PM
- 692 Views
Ooh, would you mind talking more about syndicalism?
04/10/2012 11:28:40 PM
- 598 Views
Sure, but I'm no doctrainaire on this
05/10/2012 01:13:19 AM
- 766 Views
Thank you!
Reading the wikipedia entry was making my eyes glaze over. But I can try again now. *NM*
05/10/2012 02:14:50 PM
- 523 Views

It really should be mandatory for everyone to read factcheck.org after every debate. *NM*
04/10/2012 09:38:24 AM
- 369 Views
Seriously. The number of times I squinted and thought, "Wait, that doesn't sound quite right"
04/10/2012 02:01:12 PM
- 721 Views
Romney addressed that head-on
04/10/2012 02:13:44 PM
- 614 Views
Yeah, but it ain't, and it was Obamas job to make that unnecessary.
04/10/2012 03:26:50 PM
- 728 Views
Obama - Lost and Bewildered without Teleprompter.....funny stuff!
04/10/2012 01:10:40 PM
- 646 Views
Which part of Romneys socialism was your favorite?
04/10/2012 03:38:17 PM
- 749 Views
I keep thinking that was what killed Obama.
04/10/2012 04:45:02 PM
- 669 Views
I suspected that was a lot of it, yeah, but he should have been prepared for the Etch-a-Sketch.
04/10/2012 05:25:35 PM
- 653 Views
living in a bubble where everyone agreed on those things and is what killed him
04/10/2012 05:59:29 PM
- 699 Views
why do you silly lefites keep acting like Romney is the first guy to move to the center?
04/10/2012 05:46:13 PM
- 859 Views
The primary was six months ago, and endorsing every aspect of limited welfare states is not centrist
04/10/2012 06:00:56 PM
- 683 Views
can you support that insane argument? *NM*
05/10/2012 01:10:11 PM
- 248 Views
Romney explicitly endorsed regulations, soaking the rich, entitlements and public education funding.
05/10/2012 02:25:49 PM
- 699 Views
you could have just said no
05/10/2012 05:25:44 PM
- 661 Views
Since when was Romney (or any Republican since TRs day) for more regulation or hiring more teachers?
06/10/2012 01:33:53 PM
- 727 Views
Well Bush was pushing for more banking regulations but Barney Franks blocked him
07/10/2012 03:52:50 PM
- 821 Views
A2000, your message should read:
04/10/2012 03:42:18 PM
- 669 Views
I consider the margin of error implied.
04/10/2012 05:49:50 PM
- 573 Views
Unfortunately statistics does not support that.
04/10/2012 06:11:56 PM
- 687 Views
Of course they do; the law of averages supports that.
04/10/2012 06:46:27 PM
- 718 Views
Poll numbers aren't random so even if the law of averages could be applied to a small data set...
04/10/2012 07:05:49 PM
- 597 Views
If not random, they are indicative (if not necessary conclusive,) and the data set is large enough.
04/10/2012 08:55:24 PM
- 586 Views
Let me rephrase: the law of averages is a belief. You are basing your conclusion on a belief.
04/10/2012 09:23:50 PM
- 661 Views
I have never used the Law of Averages to mean anything except the (proven) Law of Large Numbers.
05/10/2012 09:22:56 AM
- 773 Views
I'm pretty sure that 136 is not a large number. *NM*
05/10/2012 12:20:35 PM
- 394 Views
That is a matter of opinion, but for a binary event I think it huge.
05/10/2012 12:42:24 PM
- 698 Views
Without additional data, the default would be that the coin is fair. Since...
05/10/2012 05:20:21 PM
- 628 Views
After 136 trials the DEFAULT assumption no longer applies in the face of ample hard data.
06/10/2012 04:02:51 PM
- 755 Views
I did the same experiment I suggested for you.
06/10/2012 04:45:28 PM
- 601 Views
Still not a 3:1 ratio.
06/10/2012 06:09:00 PM
- 836 Views
Let me try and put it a slightly different way.
06/10/2012 08:12:35 PM
- 702 Views
The more lopsided/large the trial, the more LIKELY the coin is unfair;weight is the only way to KNOW
07/10/2012 12:09:27 PM
- 848 Views
You're completely missing the point.
07/10/2012 03:34:29 PM
- 700 Views
But 100 polls isn't analogous to 100 coin flips. Each of thousands of individuals is a coin flip.
07/10/2012 11:05:13 PM
- 686 Views
that is why you can't base things on just one poll
05/10/2012 01:27:18 AM
- 774 Views
You are making the same mistake Joel is making. You should read our discussion. *NM*
05/10/2012 01:50:01 AM
- 449 Views
there is a difference between statistical errors and model or method errors
05/10/2012 03:28:38 AM
- 658 Views
There is a difference between the law of averages and the law of large numbers.
05/10/2012 04:45:00 AM
- 854 Views
you left out part of that wiki quote you pasted
05/10/2012 05:30:52 AM
- 798 Views
You still haven't justified the application of the law of large numbers.
05/10/2012 12:24:51 PM
- 552 Views
I suggest you take some time to understand what I wrote and get back to me
05/10/2012 01:12:03 PM
- 582 Views
I obviously must have missed where you justified the use of the law of large numbers.
05/10/2012 04:43:51 PM
- 633 Views
WellI did that twice and I am waiting for you to refute what I said *NM*
05/10/2012 05:28:18 PM
- 431 Views
Since you are unwilling to be helpful...
05/10/2012 05:50:47 PM
- 742 Views
The law is a trend throughout, not a pass/fail based on if the number of polls is "large enough"
06/10/2012 03:26:33 PM
- 728 Views
I'm not saying that the law of large numbers doesn't make the margin of error less when...
06/10/2012 04:55:16 PM
- 608 Views
decades of polling history say you are wrong
07/10/2012 04:08:45 PM
- 893 Views
Stating that, "decades of polling history say you are wrong" doesn't prove your point.
07/10/2012 05:35:57 PM
- 577 Views
you are either ignoring what I am saying or you are mentally unable to understand it so I am done
07/10/2012 06:11:22 PM
- 535 Views
As you wish. I'm starting to get the same feeling from you as well. So whatever. But before you go..
07/10/2012 07:20:17 PM
- 686 Views
can wait for Ryan vs Bozo the VP
04/10/2012 06:07:30 PM
- 543 Views
If Biden performs as expected...
04/10/2012 07:46:16 PM
- 691 Views
your take on obama's foreign policy debate performance does not seem like reality
04/10/2012 08:00:51 PM
- 630 Views
I never would have thought Romney could lay such a beatdown on Obama as I saw last night.
04/10/2012 08:55:46 PM
- 702 Views
we saw the anti-romney last night. i doubt obama is going to be so flat-footed against him next time
04/10/2012 10:35:21 PM
- 628 Views
by that you mean he isn't the Romney the left tried to pretend he was and now they are mad
05/10/2012 12:53:00 AM
- 737 Views
right.... that whole 47% thing is a totally moderate position for a politician to take...
*NM*
05/10/2012 04:32:25 AM
- 358 Views

about as moderate as thinking the government didn't help New Orleans because it has a lot of blacks
05/10/2012 04:51:15 AM
- 652 Views
if you only have obama's comments from LAST election in 2008 then you have nothing
05/10/2012 03:38:07 PM
- 586 Views
who would you consider our number one geopolitical foe?
04/10/2012 10:12:53 PM
- 709 Views
China is far more dangerous. *NM*
05/10/2012 07:23:06 AM
- 305 Views
Whoa, was not expecting that point of agreement.
05/10/2012 12:35:35 PM
- 738 Views
they may be more dangerous but that doesn't that doesn't automatically make them first
05/10/2012 01:09:30 PM
- 710 Views
name two foreign policy decisions russia has blocked since 2008 *NM*
05/10/2012 03:41:15 PM
- 338 Views
It's generally both of them, really, isn't it?
05/10/2012 10:03:39 PM
- 586 Views
Agreed; much of it is that both China and Russia profit handsomely from nuclear proliferation.
06/10/2012 01:55:21 PM
- 711 Views
They both block us in the Middle East but Russia blocks us in Europe o a much larger degree
07/10/2012 04:22:40 PM
- 638 Views
WOW - Even the liberal CNN Poll confirms Romney's crushing victory.
04/10/2012 07:27:28 PM
- 738 Views
I watched it now. A few thoughts (albeit rather late):
05/10/2012 09:46:02 PM
- 772 Views
you are missing a key point
07/10/2012 04:34:17 PM
- 679 Views
Am I missing that point? I thought I said clearly enough that I thought Romney was better. *NM*
07/10/2012 08:47:42 PM
- 413 Views