Active Users:618 Time:13/12/2025 06:22:44 AM
Your hypothetical doesn't stand up in the real world, however. Tom Send a noteboard - 14/12/2012 02:46:23 PM
Manufacturers build factories in South Carolina, and Alabama, and Tennessee, and other places that don't favor unions or collective bargaining, and they pay their workers a little bit less than what union shops would pay. The difference after deducting the cost of union dues is actually negligible. They know what they are doing - they need people who are responsible and who WANT to work there, who WANT to keep their jobs, in order to build good cars.

There is a point where you can't cut wages and still attract people to work (or at least people who aren't brain damaged). That is what having the free market set wages is all about. When it costs more to ship from China, then the US becomes an attractive location again.

My point is not that unions need to go away (though they way they are presently structured, that would be a good thing), but that unions can't stop or affect a global phenomenon. They can bitch all they want about how great they are, but all they do is get themselves unemployed.

Unions don't help workers' pay on their own. The law of supply and demand ultimately determines everything. When the US built everything (i.e., had a monopoly on supply of goods), unions had the leverage to dictate labor contracts. The US worker had a monopoly on the labor pool as well.

Now, the US produces a great deal, but expressed as a percentage of worldwide output it has shrunk dramatically, and we do much more with fewer workers (unions helped drive Detroit to automate large portions of their industry to eliminate the need for lots of workers). Union shops started producing work of lesser quality than non-union shops, undercutting any benefit.

If unions keep losing (and they will), it is not because management is "waging a war" on them, but because they have no effective leverage. If they strike, the company will just look for other places to put new facilities (including overseas) or, in the case of financially insolvent companies like Hostess, just sell the intellectual property to someone else who can start up in a place where unions aren't looked on kindly.

And as for "right to work", forcing someone who doesn't want to join a union to be in one is just perverse.
Political correctness is the pettiest form of casuistry.

ἡ δὲ κἀκ τριῶν τρυπημάτων ἐργαζομένη ἐνεκάλει τῇ φύσει, δυσφορουμένη, ὅτι δὴ μὴ καὶ τοὺς τιτθοὺς αὐτῇ εὐρύτερον ἢ νῦν εἰσι τρυπώη, ὅπως καὶ ἄλλην ἐνταῦθα μίξιν ἐπιτεχνᾶσθαι δυνατὴ εἴη. – Procopius

Ummaka qinnassa nīk!

*MySmiley*
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Congrats to Michigan - The Newest Right to Work State! - 12/12/2012 04:59:29 AM 1540 Views
It's great that they were able to do it. - 12/12/2012 02:45:39 PM 847 Views
I just think it's so... odd... that people don't realize things constantly evolve. - 12/12/2012 05:18:11 PM 794 Views
Isn't this a symptom of evolution? - 12/12/2012 06:12:36 PM 833 Views
we also don't need unions to keep people on the job who are bad at it..... - 12/12/2012 06:20:22 PM 823 Views
Unions are all about protecting underperforming workers and the union leadership. - 12/12/2012 06:37:41 PM 774 Views
Dude, that's insane. - 12/12/2012 06:58:42 PM 825 Views
That's a bit naive. And instead of evolution, I should have said "ever-changing" - 12/12/2012 06:55:41 PM 715 Views
No, big companies aren't all of a sudden altruistic... - 12/12/2012 07:33:16 PM 776 Views
your three examples are of employers demanding workers do more for less - 12/12/2012 07:41:12 PM 865 Views
The good and the bad of unions: - 12/12/2012 10:33:46 PM 948 Views
Double post. - 12/12/2012 10:33:50 PM 1037 Views
Yes, and if there was not a union... - 13/12/2012 04:56:57 AM 795 Views
What are the downsides of Unions? *NM* - 12/12/2012 10:30:17 PM 469 Views
What are the upsides for anyone BUT unions? - 13/12/2012 11:58:23 PM 860 Views
the answer to the political influence is hard campaign contribution limits from individuals only - 14/12/2012 12:27:57 AM 745 Views
- 19/12/2012 01:33:13 AM 973 Views
I was hoping to hear what a union supporter recognizes as flaws of unions. - 14/12/2012 08:55:46 PM 877 Views
I'll tell you what my perceptions are.... - 14/12/2012 09:30:33 PM 917 Views
one point i need to address here: - 14/12/2012 10:09:24 PM 716 Views
Sorry, didn't realize this was addressed to me. Sure, ok: - 15/12/2012 05:14:57 AM 939 Views
it's great? - 12/12/2012 05:29:00 PM 796 Views
Pissed off people.... - 12/12/2012 06:16:49 PM 725 Views
again, what industry will those people looking for work go to in michigan? - 12/12/2012 06:23:47 PM 842 Views
This used to be the case, but no longer. - 12/12/2012 06:34:01 PM 697 Views
but that's my point exactly - 12/12/2012 06:40:20 PM 762 Views
Which industry are you refering to? *NM* - 12/12/2012 06:23:55 PM 394 Views
As a native Michigander, I can tell you it's great. - 12/12/2012 06:26:53 PM 733 Views
+1 - This is going to help bring jobs to MI and benefit the auto industry. - 12/12/2012 06:33:43 PM 748 Views
So let me get this straight. - 13/12/2012 03:54:14 PM 801 Views
Yes, it's a good thing, a very, very good thing! - 13/12/2012 05:45:43 PM 752 Views
no "right to work" in MO, MT, CO, NM, KY, WV, OH, MA, NY, DE, MN, WI, PA, OR, WA, HI, AK, MD - 13/12/2012 06:56:17 PM 783 Views
Just to play devil's advocate... - 13/12/2012 09:12:02 PM 756 Views
That would be an interesting study... - 13/12/2012 09:51:21 PM 742 Views
Re: Just to play devil's advocate... - 13/12/2012 09:57:07 PM 702 Views
I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. - 13/12/2012 10:06:34 PM 783 Views
Re: I, for one, stipulate that you are correct. - 13/12/2012 10:18:27 PM 779 Views
How is that wrong? - 13/12/2012 10:52:24 PM 724 Views
it's wrong because it ultimately drives down *all* workers' pay, not just the unions - 13/12/2012 11:26:00 PM 746 Views
Your argument is completely fallacious. - 14/12/2012 04:17:58 AM 743 Views
A brilliant argument... - 14/12/2012 07:23:53 AM 821 Views
Your hypothetical doesn't stand up in the real world, however. - 14/12/2012 02:46:23 PM 811 Views
the only reason unions are obsolete is because republicans don't want them supporting dems - 14/12/2012 06:43:56 PM 733 Views
Unions being obsolete has almost nothing to do with internal American politics - 14/12/2012 07:10:38 PM 670 Views
i would disagree, at least with respect to the spate of "right to work" laws being pushed through - 14/12/2012 07:32:26 PM 744 Views
Unions aren't going to help rein in CEO pay or corporate profits. - 14/12/2012 10:48:51 PM 730 Views
i'll take you one further.... - 14/12/2012 11:24:26 PM 692 Views
I have suggested that before - 15/12/2012 02:31:07 PM 720 Views
so you did. sorry about that! - 15/12/2012 03:59:16 PM 701 Views
So to work with your thoughts (regarding the Romans) - 14/12/2012 06:07:06 PM 726 Views
funny thing about that..... - 14/12/2012 07:25:50 PM 685 Views
And so what if they are all shit jobs with substandard pay! - 14/12/2012 07:08:41 AM 749 Views
What do you want me to say? - 14/12/2012 05:58:45 PM 849 Views
And so the destruction of the Middle Class continues. *NM* - 13/12/2012 03:43:36 PM 378 Views
Damn, I agree with Anonymous2000. - 14/12/2012 04:29:36 AM 789 Views
This must be a trying time for you. - 14/12/2012 07:06:56 AM 744 Views
Callandor sees the light, perhaps it's time for you as well! *NM* - 14/12/2012 02:08:47 PM 343 Views
HOW they are doing it..is bullshit - 13/12/2012 06:33:09 PM 902 Views
How? Residents of MI elected a Republican legislature and Governor..... - 13/12/2012 09:25:43 PM 729 Views

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