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It only bothers me when people who know better speak of "the Glieseian solar system." Joel Send a noteboard - 26/12/2012 05:33:34 PM
Galaxy meaning Milky Way and all :)

I thought we long ago established the universe does not revolve around Earth OR Sol. It is one thing when the general public makes that common error, but I wince when Lt. Commander Data or Neil deGrasse Tyson does so. :rolleyes:

This thread is the only reason I now know of the latter, and I am a little annoyed Browning used the same term for a wholly different weapon than that they made half a century ago. Apparently, there is a redundantly named "Browning BAR," referred to as such because of its auto-LOADING feature. As you can see from the below link to Brownings site, it looks nothing like the old BAR, which stands to reason since it has none of the same parts. It is ONLY semi-auto; again, I have seen nothing to suggest it can be converted to full auto, and instead seen several categorical statements it CANNOT, by any means.

That is probably true then, from a practical standpoint. Of course anything can be made full auto with enough modification even if all that's left over is the barrel of the original parts. Some manufacturers have been jumping through hoops to make weapons it can't be done to, or is very hard to, and I'll use that as anecdotal evidence of why its not that hard in their eyes with most guns.

Well, where there is a will there is a way, but that does not make it is as quick, easy and inexpensive as so many claim. That an inexperienced gunsmith and machinist with a shop and tens of thousands of dollars worth of equipment can MANUFACTURE and install an auto sear or whatever else they need does not mean I can turn any semi-auto into a full auto with just a metal file and five minutes free time. That is a rather common but perniciously false rumor that needs to be put to bed in the gun control discussion (then there will only be about thousand left.... :[)

I'm going to have to skip around a bit, so apoligies if I skip anytihng major here.

Understood; no worries.

That also stands to reason though, because it was designed as a civilian hunting rifle, never at any time intended for fully automatic fire. I am no gunsmith but, again, it is only logical a fully automatic weapon converted to semi-automatic could easily be converted BACK to fully automatic through removing/replacing/modifying some parts. I would expect it to be more difficult to accomplish that goal with one that was always semi-automatic and never fully automatic.

The big conceptual difference - more than mechanical because there are multiple mechanical means to achieve effectively parallel goals - is that a semi will do everything after a shot to get the next bullet ready but won't fire it until you pull the trigger again, and an auto will fire it if you have the trigger pulled. In some weapons (I won't say most, not sure) this amounts to adding in an extra bit, certainly with anything open bolt the procedure is more complex for semi than auto, but fundamentally -barring some bizarre rifle designs - determination of auto and semi is entirely in the trigger mechanism.

I get the conceptual difference, but the means of acheivement are both mechanical and finite. Again, you know better than I, but I understood the firing pin, chamber and associated mechanisms to be inextricably involved also. Maybe we are just saying the same things differently, but one can easily keep the trigger depressed on every gun of which I am aware; the firing pin just will not keep moving, the shell casing will not continue to be ejected and new rounds will not enter the chamber.

How much US/NATO military issue was designed as fully automatic from the outset and merely retooled as semi-auto in its commercial form (where such forms exist)? I have heard it said that "what can be done can be undone."

The M16 was full auto and a king of jamming, so it got the forward assist built in on to the M16A1 which was full auto, the A2 had single and burst, ditto the A4 (my personal fav weapon) and the A3 was full auto. There aren't as many of these kicking around as AKs and its harder to usefully modify because its a serious precision weapon in terms of the parts, hard to knock up replacements. Every last one of them is easily modded to full auto, A2 and A4, and I mean easily. Here a piece, often called a <a href="https://www.gunpartscorp.com/Manufacturers/AR15M16-33125/M16-34690/M16-37113/M16LowerReceiverButtstockAssembly-37120.htm?page=2">disconnector</a>, is actually responsible for turning the 'full auto' off after a certain number of shots (not listed on the parts but its in the schematic, not for sale obviously) and thus making it burst. In some cases - and here's where the file comes in, you'll have something that looks like a quarter sized disk with, say, 3 grooves in it, and on 3 round burst it catches in each groove and fires again, stick in a fourth groove and its 4-round burst, stick in 5, etc, do it symetrically around the whole length (depending on the bit) and now it's full auto. In others, you could simply remove the thing entirely and render it full auto or replace it with one with no grooves, just a flat disc. It's all about the specific mechanics. Theoretically any semi can be rendered full auto simply by arranging a mechanism that pulls the trigger as soon as it reset, like some home-made spring driven widget you place over a trigger, it would be slower but not really appreciably so compared to human reaction speed. So it can essentially always be done. With the AR-15 though its unavoidable because it is a M16 and the M16 is essentially a full auto weapon retrofitted to semiautomatic.

Right, that last was my point on the AR-15 and all weapons initially designed as full auto military weapons and LATER produced in a modified civilian form. We could remove the afterburners and put in a different engine to produce a subsonic "civilian" F-16, but anyone with the knowledge could restore its factory specs relatively easily; strap its engine and afterburners onto a Piper Cub and the poor thing will just disintegrate. While any gun can theoretically be converted to full auto with sufficient knowledge and means, the original design has a big impact on how practical that is.

So, yeah, if someone turns their AR-15 back into an M-16 it will be fully automatic, but it takes more than filing a firing pin, which will not do the job, and that does not apply to weapons never designed for fully automatic fire.

I'm kinda curious why you'd even be filing the firing pin in the first place.

Just guessing, but I think someone got the idea a shorter firing pin could not fully retract, and I saw someone opine that filing the sides would disable the disconnector.

Frankly, the last guy struck me (and, it seemed, most responders) as a dangerous idiot anyway. He prefaced his "question" by stating, "I am not allowed to own a gun anyway," so he is probably a convicted felon seeking advice on how to illegally make his illegally obtained semi-auto full auto. When more knowledgeable people explained why filing the pin would not do that even if it were legal, it quickly became apparent he was not so much "asking a question" as trolling for answers to dispute. Maybe it is a self-correcting problem, since he is most likely to ruin his illegal obtained weapons if left to his own devices, but reading through the thread I kept thinking, This is why we need to require screening, training and certification for gun purchases.... ;)
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This message last edited by Joel on 26/12/2012 at 05:35:05 PM
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When guns are a big national issue, how do reporters & pundits not know facts about them? Cannoli - 21/12/2012 05:33:14 PM 1474 Views
You don't hunt by walking into a classroom and shooting 20 deer TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 05:56:16 PM 938 Views
You're actually not right on that one Isaac - 21/12/2012 07:49:53 PM 860 Views
That wasn't the point I was making TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 09:49:40 PM 813 Views
You should probably clarify it then Isaac - 21/12/2012 10:47:26 PM 965 Views
His post was perfectly clear. Yours seemed like a response to an entirely different post. Narg - 21/12/2012 10:53:39 PM 1123 Views
Explain that remark, it is not obvious to me *NM* Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:00:10 PM 499 Views
I think TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:13:34 PM 793 Views
Thats' easy, there is simply no such thing as a 'hunting rifle' Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:17:41 PM 805 Views
I'd say the expert gunsmith TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:28:02 PM 828 Views
I'm also an expert at math and physics, should I be more forgiving about those too? Isaac - 22/12/2012 12:38:45 AM 795 Views
Re: I'm also an expert at math and physics, should I be more forgiving about those too? TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 01:00:18 AM 811 Views
Well I appreciate your calling it pedantic when you aren't an expert, thanks for correcting me Isaac - 22/12/2012 01:15:08 AM 880 Views
Re: Well I appreciate your calling it pedantic when you aren't an expert, thanks for correcting me TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 09:35:38 AM 998 Views
So much for serious conversation Isaac - 22/12/2012 05:09:08 PM 813 Views
Oh I'm certainly bowing out TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 06:07:11 PM 801 Views
I thought I was being perfectly clear. TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 10:57:35 PM 805 Views
Re: I thought I was being perfectly clear. Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:25:04 PM 868 Views
Oh I wasn't commenting on the standard of people here TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:29:36 PM 762 Views
A bit of an aside, but I was reading that the gun used in the attack can be bought in Canada too. Nate - 21/12/2012 06:14:01 PM 815 Views
you're largely correct, which is why we need stronger laws on ownership not guns per se moondog - 21/12/2012 09:39:14 PM 778 Views
I can't think of a better reason than self defense Isaac - 21/12/2012 10:33:26 PM 830 Views
He is right about Australia TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 10:46:27 PM 813 Views
No kidding Isaac - 21/12/2012 10:59:28 PM 803 Views
If you knew all that TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:02:38 PM 830 Views
Because I used wiki of course Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:21:25 PM 872 Views
He said ""self defense" is not a valid excuse to own a lethal weapon" TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:34:59 PM 746 Views
Yes,which is un-cited, but I did prove it's a valid excuse to use one, so... Isaac - 22/12/2012 12:36:19 AM 864 Views
The difference between allowing someone to defend themselves with a gun they have TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 01:09:40 AM 765 Views
Which you apparently think they shouldn't be able to obtain? Catch-22 comes to mind. Isaac - 22/12/2012 01:17:25 AM 829 Views
Re: Which you apparently think they shouldn't be able to obtain? Catch-22 comes to mind. TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 09:51:51 AM 833 Views
A wood chipper isn't a gun, and evidence without proof isn't evidence Isaac - 22/12/2012 06:10:34 PM 791 Views
If only you'd asked him for a citation rather than just saying you thought he was wrong eh? *NM* TheCrownless - 23/12/2012 12:29:30 AM 610 Views
Same thing, don't split hairs *NM* Isaac - 23/12/2012 12:43:44 AM 574 Views
I think you are on the right track, but to the wrong destination; "lethal weapon" is redundant. Joel - 21/12/2012 11:05:29 PM 805 Views
My read is that the 2nd Amendment not only allows, but mandates, cop-killer bullets. Cannoli - 22/12/2012 12:45:04 AM 842 Views
Does the Second Amendment protect the rights of felons and the mentally incompetent to have guns? Joel - 22/12/2012 02:35:16 AM 1004 Views
Court rulings have determined that your Constitutional Rights can be restricted for felony/insanity *NM* HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 12:59:31 PM 529 Views
Activist judges should not make law. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:04:42 PM 807 Views
I agree, but the courts have already ruled that way so we are stuck. *NM* HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:03:35 PM 499 Views
Then I guess we need the courts to rule gun owners need screening, training and licensing. Joel - 26/12/2012 03:46:05 PM 815 Views
No, if you want to restrict the 2nd (or any other amendment) amend the Constitution HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 07:56:19 PM 787 Views
I do not want to restrict the Second Amendment, only enact the regulations it explictly allows. Joel - 26/12/2012 08:50:09 PM 825 Views
I disagree with your interpretation. The simple EXISTANCE of the BoR makes it binding on the states HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 03:46:17 PM 816 Views
"Congress shall make no law..." restricts the STATES? How, exactly? Joel - 28/12/2012 03:03:19 PM 786 Views
The 2nd amendment does not mention Congress in any way. There is that reading issue again. HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:02:41 PM 728 Views
You said, "the Bill of Rights," not "the Second Amendment." Joel - 28/12/2012 11:10:00 PM 809 Views
Copy-N-Paste, get over it. we are specifically discussing the 2nd amendment, not everything. HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 02:24:30 PM 702 Views
Some semi-autos are easily modified for full auto fire, making the distinction one w/o a difference. Joel - 21/12/2012 10:53:59 PM 876 Views
Correction: virtually all semi-automatics are easily convertable Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:23:35 PM 818 Views
How many of the people I was complaining about would know that? Cannoli - 22/12/2012 12:48:59 AM 814 Views
Some, possibly? I am ever the optimist Isaac - 22/12/2012 12:58:36 AM 773 Views
I have seen nothing on turning a semi-auto BAR into a fully automatic one. Joel - 22/12/2012 01:11:12 AM 735 Views
What's a BAR? In any event, link a diagram and I'll let you know Isaac - 22/12/2012 01:26:31 AM 742 Views
Confusingly, there are two: The BAR you and I think of, and the "Browning BAR," a current semi-auto Joel - 22/12/2012 01:07:30 PM 850 Views
Department of Redundancy Department gets to name a lot of stuff, like "Milky Way Galaxy" Isaac - 22/12/2012 05:01:45 PM 1009 Views
It only bothers me when people who know better speak of "the Glieseian solar system." Joel - 26/12/2012 05:33:34 PM 893 Views
Both terms are pretty stuck now Isaac - 26/12/2012 10:48:38 PM 959 Views
You realize that encourages rather than discourages my opposition to the usage, right? Joel - 27/12/2012 01:23:15 AM 736 Views
Well I can't say it surprises Isaac - 27/12/2012 04:29:06 AM 676 Views
No one expects the Online Inquisition! Joel - 27/12/2012 05:20:44 PM 690 Views
I've enjoyed most reboots Isaac - 28/12/2012 01:06:05 AM 632 Views
Yes the media is using terms incorrectly but the point still stands. Roland00 - 22/12/2012 03:02:18 AM 743 Views
Re: Yes the media is using terms incorrectly but the point still stands. MrFarstrider - 22/12/2012 04:12:30 AM 791 Views
Yes people can always still kill each other, humans are very ingenuitive Roland00 - 22/12/2012 04:42:04 AM 767 Views
I took a driving exam when I was 16, and have never been tested since, nor will I ever be. HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:17:05 PM 920 Views
Never is a long time; just renewing a license requires retaking the eye exam most places. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:16:54 PM 838 Views
Rather hard to do an eye exam online or through the mail. HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:08:06 PM 914 Views
Yes, it is, which is why I have always had to go by DPS for a new license. Joel - 26/12/2012 03:50:04 PM 748 Views
Tennessee and Florida pass them out like candy. For several years TN offered a no ID license HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 08:02:39 PM 762 Views
I still find it odd they require no eye test, that either allows the blind drivers licenses. Joel - 26/12/2012 08:58:57 PM 798 Views
Oh yeah, we have wandered off course *shrug* HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 03:55:55 PM 901 Views
Voter registration while getting a drivers license is distinct from the ease of licensing. Joel - 28/12/2012 03:35:34 PM 881 Views
Re: Voter registration while getting a drivers license is distinct from the ease of licensing. HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:14:32 PM 677 Views
If you can prove someone voted illegally, call the ACLU and claim your $1000. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:18:38 PM 832 Views
puhleeze.... election fraud is a fact. Pick a state, ANY state, ANY election... HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 02:41:40 PM 778 Views
umm... ironclad - 22/12/2012 12:41:31 PM 713 Views
Clip size is meaningless, semi-autos and even revolvers can be reloaded VERY quickly. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:20:59 PM 498 Views
1997 North Hollywood Shootout MrFarstrider - 22/12/2012 04:07:39 AM 885 Views
typical NRA bullshit response moondog - 22/12/2012 04:53:40 AM 813 Views
typical Moondog bullshit response HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:06:12 PM 819 Views
of course! there is no connection between having a gun and shooting someone. got it moondog - 23/12/2012 02:33:18 PM 712 Views
There is no corelation between decidng to kill someone and what tool you use. HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:11:08 PM 774 Views
By that logic no one needs a gun for self-defense; a coffee mug is perfectly adequate. Joel - 26/12/2012 09:06:51 PM 819 Views
I can kill you with my coffee mug... RESPECT THE MUG but I wouldn't, I might spill the coffee. HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:08:52 PM 682 Views
So you are saying you do not need a gun then? I will keep mine anyway, thanks. Joel - 28/12/2012 04:19:03 PM 774 Views
You covered a bunch of different things, and completely misrepresentted what I wrote HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:28:24 PM 811 Views
Home made explosives are pretty much always illegal; I did not want to overlook legal ones. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:44:19 PM 1009 Views
Re: Home made explosives are pretty much always illegal; I did not want to overlook legal ones. HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 03:31:01 PM 760 Views
Laws against murder failed to prevent that, too; clearly they are ineffective and should be repealed Joel - 22/12/2012 06:02:24 AM 935 Views
Such laws were never intended for prevention, they define actions that will be punished. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 12:57:57 PM 533 Views
So do laws against getting a gun without screening, training and certification. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:01:32 PM 755 Views
Then CHANGE the Constitution, don't ignore it. *NM* HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:12:11 PM 472 Views
I am not suggesting either changing or ignoring the Constitution. Joel - 26/12/2012 04:01:02 PM 861 Views
Yes you are. HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 08:06:01 PM 656 Views
Learn logic, and stop needlessly trying to teach me grammar. Joel - 26/12/2012 08:55:25 PM 830 Views
Lear to read, and I won't have to HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:28:59 PM 889 Views
Ironically, you misspelled "learn." Joel - 28/12/2012 05:15:17 PM 1124 Views
I know, I thought about going back and fixing the typo, but thought it was funny so I left it. *NM* HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:34:06 PM 496 Views
I agree it is funny, but probably for different reasons. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:19:44 PM 715 Views
2 commas or 4 makes no difference one is a 12D the other is a sentance. HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:55:31 PM 756 Views
It makes a huge difference when (incorrectly) claiming to know the text. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:31:51 PM 1067 Views
and by REGULATED, the authors meeant "able to use it effectively" HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 03:47:57 PM 821 Views
You are wrong. snoopcester - 22/12/2012 12:14:40 PM 830 Views
That explains much; I read somewhere Brits are averse to it. Joel - 22/12/2012 01:17:15 PM 751 Views
We're also averse to being wrong. snoopcester - 22/12/2012 02:53:49 PM 832 Views
So you say... Joel - 22/12/2012 03:32:16 PM 751 Views
guns r stpid *NM* Kuke - 23/12/2012 12:39:30 AM 553 Views
What bemuses me about this thing with Adam Lanza, is that his mother had 5 registered guns Helene - 23/12/2012 07:10:26 AM 846 Views
She also had many knives, and blunt objecs around the house. Tools are only as good as the user HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:10:58 PM 851 Views
So clearly she wasn't prepared enough... btw, do we know she was sleeping? Helene - 27/12/2012 10:52:03 AM 785 Views
That she 1) was in bed, 2) had guns for self-defense and 3) was shot 4 times strongly suggests sleep Joel - 28/12/2012 11:49:20 PM 848 Views
How doesn't it prove that owning guns doesn't make you safer Helene - 29/12/2012 06:54:34 AM 771 Views
She was asleep with him in the house. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:24:47 PM 826 Views
LOOK, look, there is another one... HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:13:45 PM 770 Views
I find the absolutist ant/pro-gun positions equally dangerous and absurd. Joel - 26/12/2012 04:20:37 PM 739 Views
So we should just *kinda* ignore the Constitution *this* time... But what about NEXT time... HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 08:08:12 PM 724 Views
No, we should enact gun regulation the Constitution explicitly empowers. Joel - 26/12/2012 09:02:12 PM 734 Views
Which would be... NONE. *NM* HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:31:53 PM 475 Views
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state...." Joel - 28/12/2012 05:14:49 PM 743 Views
*see previous grammar lesson* *NM* HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:31:43 PM 459 Views
The instant it becomes relevant, I shall. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:45:01 PM 922 Views
Your point being? Helene - 27/12/2012 10:47:29 AM 729 Views
I am certain it would have been better, though not good, if she had been awake and shot him. Joel - 27/12/2012 02:16:13 PM 852 Views
So the situation of Nancy and Adam shooting at each other Helene - 28/12/2012 07:44:12 AM 857 Views
No, I believe they were both mentally incompetent to have guns; that does not mean EVERYONE is. Joel - 28/12/2012 02:19:51 PM 775 Views
How do you know Nancy Lanza was mentally incompetent? Helene - 29/12/2012 07:06:40 AM 773 Views
As a father, I would rather kill my own child than have him kill 26 other people. HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:35:02 PM 682 Views
And as a father, you are somehow clairvoyant? Helene - 28/12/2012 07:43:08 AM 740 Views
Nice flippant unthinking reply, you and moondog should get together. *NM* HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 04:55:14 PM 518 Views
How is my reply flippant? Your statement was unthinking, not mine. Helene - 29/12/2012 06:59:04 AM 780 Views
YOU asked if it would have been better for her to kill her own child instead, I answered. HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 03:52:02 PM 788 Views
I asked if a shoot out between mother and son had been better, not whether she should have killed Helene - 29/12/2012 08:54:09 PM 731 Views
You make no sense. HyogaRott - 31/12/2012 06:07:50 PM 792 Views
I make no sense to you because you probably just don't understand my point. Helene - 01/01/2013 08:09:11 AM 872 Views
Maybe the heat death of the univers occurs before you finally have a cohearant thought HyogaRott - 01/01/2013 07:34:31 PM 788 Views
You do realize that resorting to personal attacks reveal an inability to make sound arguments? *NM* Helene - 02/01/2013 06:01:33 PM 557 Views
That is not an ad hominem attack, and your prior post was not very logically coherent Isaac - 02/01/2013 08:59:16 PM 865 Views
Instead of actually showing why my arguments would be incoherent or why I'm immature, he just said Helene - 05/01/2013 02:02:23 AM 850 Views
He did not Isaac - 05/01/2013 01:39:40 PM 1171 Views
Facts are irrelevant when FUD is the order of the day. Macharius - 24/12/2012 04:34:18 PM 728 Views
It irritates me too. *NM* Avendesora - 01/01/2013 01:55:05 PM 475 Views
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