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It makes a huge difference when (incorrectly) claiming to know the text. Joel Send a noteboard - 28/12/2012 11:31:51 PM
You might also find it interesting to discover what the terms "well regulated" and "militia" meant in colonial times.

I am familiar with both but, while interesting, it is not RELEVANT unless we live in colonial times (note: We do not. ;))

Congratualations on passing a high school AP exam, so did I (several actually). yippee, that and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Too bad if my spelling bothers you (BTW spelling and grammar are 2 different disciplines). I usually use a spell checker to catch most of them but there isn't that much I can do about it, bad spelling (especially typographical error) is a side effect of my dyslexia. You should see it before I correct it. :)

I can only pray "dependant" is not in your spell checker; if it is, I urge its prompt removal. Spelling and grammar are distinct concepts, yes, but I would not call them distinct DISCIPLINES; they are closely related, and both are integral to proper use and comprehension of English. A 3 is a passing score on the AP English exam; a 5 is a PERFECT score (note: "passing"=/="perfect.") I claim no great laurels for that (it got me A credit for two three-hour English classes at UT, but since Plan II majors are required to take Plan II Freshman English anyway that did not matter much except for GPA.) The point was that I neither require nor desire your persistent remedial grammar lessons. I know what a dependent clause is, but also know it cannot change causality (if only....)

Yes, it is my position that the REASON they felt that the right of people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed is not relevant. The fact of the matter is that the amendment says that the right of the PEOPLE (not militia) to keep and bear arms shall not (not "only slightly", or "not unreasonably" )be infringed.

The propositions first, dependent, clause is also its antecedent; as such, that sets the limits and basis of the second, independent, clause, which is also its consequent. You are essentially contending half the Second Amendment is superfluous, a decidedly odd position for a "strict constructionist."

The 2nd amendment is written as an absolute, not a conditional statement. We can discuss why they wanted it an absolte. We can debat to what extent they felt that modern military weapons belonged in the hands of civillians (bear in mind that they were ok with private ownership of cannon). However, the plain text of the 2nd amendment is not debatable, it simply is.

I will meet you half way: It is absolutely conditional. :P I am as amenable to private ownership of cannon as they were: Perfectly legal and wholly subject to regulation.
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When guns are a big national issue, how do reporters & pundits not know facts about them? Cannoli - 21/12/2012 05:33:14 PM 1474 Views
You don't hunt by walking into a classroom and shooting 20 deer TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 05:56:16 PM 938 Views
You're actually not right on that one Isaac - 21/12/2012 07:49:53 PM 860 Views
That wasn't the point I was making TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 09:49:40 PM 813 Views
You should probably clarify it then Isaac - 21/12/2012 10:47:26 PM 965 Views
His post was perfectly clear. Yours seemed like a response to an entirely different post. Narg - 21/12/2012 10:53:39 PM 1123 Views
Explain that remark, it is not obvious to me *NM* Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:00:10 PM 499 Views
I think TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:13:34 PM 793 Views
Thats' easy, there is simply no such thing as a 'hunting rifle' Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:17:41 PM 805 Views
I'd say the expert gunsmith TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:28:02 PM 828 Views
I'm also an expert at math and physics, should I be more forgiving about those too? Isaac - 22/12/2012 12:38:45 AM 795 Views
Re: I'm also an expert at math and physics, should I be more forgiving about those too? TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 01:00:18 AM 811 Views
Well I appreciate your calling it pedantic when you aren't an expert, thanks for correcting me Isaac - 22/12/2012 01:15:08 AM 880 Views
Re: Well I appreciate your calling it pedantic when you aren't an expert, thanks for correcting me TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 09:35:38 AM 998 Views
So much for serious conversation Isaac - 22/12/2012 05:09:08 PM 813 Views
Oh I'm certainly bowing out TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 06:07:11 PM 801 Views
I thought I was being perfectly clear. TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 10:57:35 PM 805 Views
Re: I thought I was being perfectly clear. Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:25:04 PM 868 Views
Oh I wasn't commenting on the standard of people here TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:29:36 PM 762 Views
A bit of an aside, but I was reading that the gun used in the attack can be bought in Canada too. Nate - 21/12/2012 06:14:01 PM 815 Views
you're largely correct, which is why we need stronger laws on ownership not guns per se moondog - 21/12/2012 09:39:14 PM 778 Views
I can't think of a better reason than self defense Isaac - 21/12/2012 10:33:26 PM 830 Views
He is right about Australia TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 10:46:27 PM 813 Views
No kidding Isaac - 21/12/2012 10:59:28 PM 803 Views
If you knew all that TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:02:38 PM 830 Views
Because I used wiki of course Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:21:25 PM 872 Views
He said ""self defense" is not a valid excuse to own a lethal weapon" TheCrownless - 21/12/2012 11:34:59 PM 746 Views
Yes,which is un-cited, but I did prove it's a valid excuse to use one, so... Isaac - 22/12/2012 12:36:19 AM 864 Views
The difference between allowing someone to defend themselves with a gun they have TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 01:09:40 AM 765 Views
Which you apparently think they shouldn't be able to obtain? Catch-22 comes to mind. Isaac - 22/12/2012 01:17:25 AM 829 Views
Re: Which you apparently think they shouldn't be able to obtain? Catch-22 comes to mind. TheCrownless - 22/12/2012 09:51:51 AM 833 Views
A wood chipper isn't a gun, and evidence without proof isn't evidence Isaac - 22/12/2012 06:10:34 PM 791 Views
If only you'd asked him for a citation rather than just saying you thought he was wrong eh? *NM* TheCrownless - 23/12/2012 12:29:30 AM 609 Views
Same thing, don't split hairs *NM* Isaac - 23/12/2012 12:43:44 AM 574 Views
I think you are on the right track, but to the wrong destination; "lethal weapon" is redundant. Joel - 21/12/2012 11:05:29 PM 805 Views
My read is that the 2nd Amendment not only allows, but mandates, cop-killer bullets. Cannoli - 22/12/2012 12:45:04 AM 842 Views
Does the Second Amendment protect the rights of felons and the mentally incompetent to have guns? Joel - 22/12/2012 02:35:16 AM 1004 Views
Court rulings have determined that your Constitutional Rights can be restricted for felony/insanity *NM* HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 12:59:31 PM 529 Views
Activist judges should not make law. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:04:42 PM 807 Views
I agree, but the courts have already ruled that way so we are stuck. *NM* HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:03:35 PM 499 Views
Then I guess we need the courts to rule gun owners need screening, training and licensing. Joel - 26/12/2012 03:46:05 PM 815 Views
No, if you want to restrict the 2nd (or any other amendment) amend the Constitution HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 07:56:19 PM 787 Views
I do not want to restrict the Second Amendment, only enact the regulations it explictly allows. Joel - 26/12/2012 08:50:09 PM 825 Views
I disagree with your interpretation. The simple EXISTANCE of the BoR makes it binding on the states HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 03:46:17 PM 816 Views
"Congress shall make no law..." restricts the STATES? How, exactly? Joel - 28/12/2012 03:03:19 PM 786 Views
The 2nd amendment does not mention Congress in any way. There is that reading issue again. HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:02:41 PM 728 Views
You said, "the Bill of Rights," not "the Second Amendment." Joel - 28/12/2012 11:10:00 PM 809 Views
Copy-N-Paste, get over it. we are specifically discussing the 2nd amendment, not everything. HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 02:24:30 PM 702 Views
Some semi-autos are easily modified for full auto fire, making the distinction one w/o a difference. Joel - 21/12/2012 10:53:59 PM 876 Views
Correction: virtually all semi-automatics are easily convertable Isaac - 21/12/2012 11:23:35 PM 818 Views
How many of the people I was complaining about would know that? Cannoli - 22/12/2012 12:48:59 AM 814 Views
Some, possibly? I am ever the optimist Isaac - 22/12/2012 12:58:36 AM 773 Views
I have seen nothing on turning a semi-auto BAR into a fully automatic one. Joel - 22/12/2012 01:11:12 AM 735 Views
What's a BAR? In any event, link a diagram and I'll let you know Isaac - 22/12/2012 01:26:31 AM 742 Views
Confusingly, there are two: The BAR you and I think of, and the "Browning BAR," a current semi-auto Joel - 22/12/2012 01:07:30 PM 850 Views
Department of Redundancy Department gets to name a lot of stuff, like "Milky Way Galaxy" Isaac - 22/12/2012 05:01:45 PM 1009 Views
It only bothers me when people who know better speak of "the Glieseian solar system." Joel - 26/12/2012 05:33:34 PM 892 Views
Both terms are pretty stuck now Isaac - 26/12/2012 10:48:38 PM 959 Views
You realize that encourages rather than discourages my opposition to the usage, right? Joel - 27/12/2012 01:23:15 AM 736 Views
Well I can't say it surprises Isaac - 27/12/2012 04:29:06 AM 676 Views
No one expects the Online Inquisition! Joel - 27/12/2012 05:20:44 PM 690 Views
I've enjoyed most reboots Isaac - 28/12/2012 01:06:05 AM 632 Views
Yes the media is using terms incorrectly but the point still stands. Roland00 - 22/12/2012 03:02:18 AM 743 Views
Re: Yes the media is using terms incorrectly but the point still stands. MrFarstrider - 22/12/2012 04:12:30 AM 791 Views
Yes people can always still kill each other, humans are very ingenuitive Roland00 - 22/12/2012 04:42:04 AM 766 Views
I took a driving exam when I was 16, and have never been tested since, nor will I ever be. HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:17:05 PM 920 Views
Never is a long time; just renewing a license requires retaking the eye exam most places. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:16:54 PM 838 Views
Rather hard to do an eye exam online or through the mail. HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:08:06 PM 914 Views
Yes, it is, which is why I have always had to go by DPS for a new license. Joel - 26/12/2012 03:50:04 PM 748 Views
Tennessee and Florida pass them out like candy. For several years TN offered a no ID license HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 08:02:39 PM 762 Views
I still find it odd they require no eye test, that either allows the blind drivers licenses. Joel - 26/12/2012 08:58:57 PM 798 Views
Oh yeah, we have wandered off course *shrug* HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 03:55:55 PM 901 Views
Voter registration while getting a drivers license is distinct from the ease of licensing. Joel - 28/12/2012 03:35:34 PM 881 Views
Re: Voter registration while getting a drivers license is distinct from the ease of licensing. HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:14:32 PM 677 Views
If you can prove someone voted illegally, call the ACLU and claim your $1000. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:18:38 PM 832 Views
puhleeze.... election fraud is a fact. Pick a state, ANY state, ANY election... HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 02:41:40 PM 778 Views
umm... ironclad - 22/12/2012 12:41:31 PM 713 Views
Clip size is meaningless, semi-autos and even revolvers can be reloaded VERY quickly. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:20:59 PM 498 Views
1997 North Hollywood Shootout MrFarstrider - 22/12/2012 04:07:39 AM 885 Views
typical NRA bullshit response moondog - 22/12/2012 04:53:40 AM 813 Views
typical Moondog bullshit response HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:06:12 PM 819 Views
of course! there is no connection between having a gun and shooting someone. got it moondog - 23/12/2012 02:33:18 PM 712 Views
There is no corelation between decidng to kill someone and what tool you use. HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:11:08 PM 774 Views
By that logic no one needs a gun for self-defense; a coffee mug is perfectly adequate. Joel - 26/12/2012 09:06:51 PM 819 Views
I can kill you with my coffee mug... RESPECT THE MUG but I wouldn't, I might spill the coffee. HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:08:52 PM 682 Views
So you are saying you do not need a gun then? I will keep mine anyway, thanks. Joel - 28/12/2012 04:19:03 PM 774 Views
You covered a bunch of different things, and completely misrepresentted what I wrote HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:28:24 PM 811 Views
Home made explosives are pretty much always illegal; I did not want to overlook legal ones. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:44:19 PM 1009 Views
Re: Home made explosives are pretty much always illegal; I did not want to overlook legal ones. HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 03:31:01 PM 760 Views
Laws against murder failed to prevent that, too; clearly they are ineffective and should be repealed Joel - 22/12/2012 06:02:24 AM 934 Views
Such laws were never intended for prevention, they define actions that will be punished. *NM* HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 12:57:57 PM 533 Views
So do laws against getting a gun without screening, training and certification. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:01:32 PM 755 Views
Then CHANGE the Constitution, don't ignore it. *NM* HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:12:11 PM 472 Views
I am not suggesting either changing or ignoring the Constitution. Joel - 26/12/2012 04:01:02 PM 861 Views
Yes you are. HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 08:06:01 PM 656 Views
Learn logic, and stop needlessly trying to teach me grammar. Joel - 26/12/2012 08:55:25 PM 830 Views
Lear to read, and I won't have to HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:28:59 PM 889 Views
Ironically, you misspelled "learn." Joel - 28/12/2012 05:15:17 PM 1124 Views
I know, I thought about going back and fixing the typo, but thought it was funny so I left it. *NM* HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:34:06 PM 496 Views
I agree it is funny, but probably for different reasons. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:19:44 PM 715 Views
2 commas or 4 makes no difference one is a 12D the other is a sentance. HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:55:31 PM 756 Views
It makes a huge difference when (incorrectly) claiming to know the text. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:31:51 PM 1067 Views
and by REGULATED, the authors meeant "able to use it effectively" HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 03:47:57 PM 821 Views
You are wrong. snoopcester - 22/12/2012 12:14:40 PM 830 Views
That explains much; I read somewhere Brits are averse to it. Joel - 22/12/2012 01:17:15 PM 751 Views
We're also averse to being wrong. snoopcester - 22/12/2012 02:53:49 PM 832 Views
So you say... Joel - 22/12/2012 03:32:16 PM 751 Views
guns r stpid *NM* Kuke - 23/12/2012 12:39:30 AM 553 Views
What bemuses me about this thing with Adam Lanza, is that his mother had 5 registered guns Helene - 23/12/2012 07:10:26 AM 846 Views
She also had many knives, and blunt objecs around the house. Tools are only as good as the user HyogaRott - 23/12/2012 01:10:58 PM 851 Views
So clearly she wasn't prepared enough... btw, do we know she was sleeping? Helene - 27/12/2012 10:52:03 AM 785 Views
That she 1) was in bed, 2) had guns for self-defense and 3) was shot 4 times strongly suggests sleep Joel - 28/12/2012 11:49:20 PM 848 Views
How doesn't it prove that owning guns doesn't make you safer Helene - 29/12/2012 06:54:34 AM 771 Views
She was asleep with him in the house. Joel - 23/12/2012 02:24:47 PM 826 Views
LOOK, look, there is another one... HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 03:13:45 PM 770 Views
I find the absolutist ant/pro-gun positions equally dangerous and absurd. Joel - 26/12/2012 04:20:37 PM 739 Views
So we should just *kinda* ignore the Constitution *this* time... But what about NEXT time... HyogaRott - 26/12/2012 08:08:12 PM 724 Views
No, we should enact gun regulation the Constitution explicitly empowers. Joel - 26/12/2012 09:02:12 PM 734 Views
Which would be... NONE. *NM* HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:31:53 PM 475 Views
"A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state...." Joel - 28/12/2012 05:14:49 PM 743 Views
*see previous grammar lesson* *NM* HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 10:31:43 PM 459 Views
The instant it becomes relevant, I shall. Joel - 28/12/2012 11:45:01 PM 922 Views
Your point being? Helene - 27/12/2012 10:47:29 AM 729 Views
I am certain it would have been better, though not good, if she had been awake and shot him. Joel - 27/12/2012 02:16:13 PM 852 Views
So the situation of Nancy and Adam shooting at each other Helene - 28/12/2012 07:44:12 AM 857 Views
No, I believe they were both mentally incompetent to have guns; that does not mean EVERYONE is. Joel - 28/12/2012 02:19:51 PM 775 Views
How do you know Nancy Lanza was mentally incompetent? Helene - 29/12/2012 07:06:40 AM 773 Views
As a father, I would rather kill my own child than have him kill 26 other people. HyogaRott - 27/12/2012 04:35:02 PM 682 Views
And as a father, you are somehow clairvoyant? Helene - 28/12/2012 07:43:08 AM 740 Views
Nice flippant unthinking reply, you and moondog should get together. *NM* HyogaRott - 28/12/2012 04:55:14 PM 518 Views
How is my reply flippant? Your statement was unthinking, not mine. Helene - 29/12/2012 06:59:04 AM 780 Views
YOU asked if it would have been better for her to kill her own child instead, I answered. HyogaRott - 29/12/2012 03:52:02 PM 788 Views
I asked if a shoot out between mother and son had been better, not whether she should have killed Helene - 29/12/2012 08:54:09 PM 731 Views
You make no sense. HyogaRott - 31/12/2012 06:07:50 PM 792 Views
I make no sense to you because you probably just don't understand my point. Helene - 01/01/2013 08:09:11 AM 872 Views
Maybe the heat death of the univers occurs before you finally have a cohearant thought HyogaRott - 01/01/2013 07:34:31 PM 788 Views
You do realize that resorting to personal attacks reveal an inability to make sound arguments? *NM* Helene - 02/01/2013 06:01:33 PM 557 Views
That is not an ad hominem attack, and your prior post was not very logically coherent Isaac - 02/01/2013 08:59:16 PM 865 Views
Instead of actually showing why my arguments would be incoherent or why I'm immature, he just said Helene - 05/01/2013 02:02:23 AM 850 Views
He did not Isaac - 05/01/2013 01:39:40 PM 1171 Views
Facts are irrelevant when FUD is the order of the day. Macharius - 24/12/2012 04:34:18 PM 728 Views
It irritates me too. *NM* Avendesora - 01/01/2013 01:55:05 PM 475 Views
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