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It is insurance against old age poverty, not a longevity lottery. Joel Send a noteboard - 04/03/2013 02:00:24 AM

View original postMeans testing:
It makes monetary sense ONLY if your remove morality. Contribution to SS is forced by law. In other words the government is going to take my money regardless of my personal desire (except for certain specific occupations that are exempt). Thye are taking that money under the promise that they will return it to me some day (presumably because I can not be trusted to take care of myself). If they (the government) instead looks at me and says "Sorry, you have too much money now we aren't going to give you your money back" That is called theft when done by anyone else, and is a crime.

Do you give people money back each time they go a year without needing medical care? But you are concerned about compulsory participation, I understand; do you return malpractice premiums to every doctor who retires without filing a claim? No? Have you consulted your lawyer/priest about that? ;)

Quite frankly, no, you can NOT be trusted to take care of yourself, because until SS >50% of Americans >65 lived in poverty. Today it is ~10%.


View original postContribution limits:
The contribution is capped, but so is the eventual pay-out. If you want to remove the contribution limit, go for it, but you have to remove the disbursement limit as well, otherwise you are just stealing money. Mathematically, SS can't handle the increased pay-out so there is no "fair" argument for eliminating the contribution limit.

How is the payout capped? Like, when people hit 95 they say, "sorry, that is all the money you contributed; no more benefits for you." No, people who live to 120 keep getting benefits each month of every year, however much they paid. Since US life expectancy is 13 years higher than when SS was created it is not only reasonable but wise to proportionally increase the witholding limit. Again, there is more money in the trust fund now than six months ago, because most people have not yet hit this years witholding limit, and no one has been stupid enough to say, "hey, SS is going broke; why not declare yet another witholding 'holiday' and pretend the people enjoying it will not have to pay for it when they are 70?" Just removing the witholding limit would fund the supposed "unsustainable Ponzi scheme" indefinitely.
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This message last edited by Joel on 04/03/2013 at 02:03:04 AM
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Can You Name the Largest US Program to ANNUALLY Collect More Than It Spent for 75 Straight Years? Joel - 28/02/2013 11:03:18 PM 1257 Views
Medicare? *NM* Aisha - 28/02/2013 11:38:22 PM 483 Views
No, Medicare has only been around about half as long. Joel - 28/02/2013 11:56:32 PM 764 Views
Medicare has its own problems, and caused many more. You really do not want to have this debate. HyogaRott - 03/03/2013 03:03:15 PM 689 Views
No, I do not, because Medicare and torts are invariably scapegoated for all problems with healthcare Joel - 04/03/2013 12:52:37 AM 751 Views
I can argue with anyone on this (and have) btut first we need to break out that dictionary HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:45:06 AM 670 Views
I am sure you can and have; ability to form arguments does not automatically grant them validity. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:11 PM 736 Views
Like I said, short conversation, once everyone uses the same definitions. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 03:28:52 PM 735 Views
From the way you're shitting yourself with glee, I'm going to say Social Security. Cannoli - 01/03/2013 12:45:50 AM 860 Views
Hot dog, we have a wiener! Joel - 01/03/2013 01:40:18 AM 799 Views
Also unlike Ponzis, Social Security was not meant to profit—it just did anyway. For 75 years. Joel - 01/03/2013 01:55:46 AM 708 Views
It is a "Ponzi" by definition, any argument to the contrary just makes you look ignorant. HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:02:46 PM 774 Views
Wait: An insurer is saying insurance is a Ponzi scheme? Joel - 04/03/2013 12:56:30 AM 741 Views
You are making even lese sense than usual... Quite an acomplishment. *NM* HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 03:31:39 AM 468 Views
Maybe, but my math usually checks, and I never have to explain what I omitted. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:55:50 PM 826 Views
My math ALWAYS "checks" - it isn't personal, you are just making absolutely no sense, *NM* HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 03:27:11 PM 409 Views
It's the world's greatest Ponzi scheme, since the government forces us to give money to it. Anonymous2000 - 01/03/2013 01:05:05 PM 694 Views
Yes, "government forcing people to give money" defines a Ponzi; speeding tickets are Ponzis. Joel - 01/03/2013 03:53:02 PM 812 Views
Good lord my friend..... Anonymous2000 - 02/03/2013 04:19:35 AM 737 Views
I will just link what Isaac said; maybe then you will pay attention to it. Joel - 02/03/2013 04:56:34 AM 778 Views
I really think you terribly misread what I said *NM* Isaac - 02/03/2013 06:59:56 AM 409 Views
Yes he did. He has very poor reading comprehension skills. *NM* Anonymous2000 - 03/03/2013 01:07:59 AM 432 Views
I really do not think I did. Joel - 04/03/2013 01:43:02 AM 812 Views
I'm pretty confident you have Isaac - 04/03/2013 11:49:19 AM 803 Views
We evidently disagree on what constitutes a Ponzi scheme. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:27 PM 728 Views
No, I agree with a clear definiton, you seem not to want to absorb that Isaac - 11/03/2013 10:24:47 PM 868 Views
It is neither an investment nor fraudulent. Joel - 12/03/2013 02:34:09 AM 932 Views
Re: Yes, "government forcing people to give money" defines a Ponzi; speeding tickets are Ponzis. HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:22:34 PM 793 Views
Fraud="money contributed is NOT invested for the contributor, but instead redistributed to others"? Joel - 04/03/2013 12:51:30 AM 717 Views
You can try and misrepresent what I have said all you want, you are still wrong. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 03:45:24 AM 800 Views
Dude, how is QUOTING you misrepresenting you?! And why must I ALWAYS ask that in these threads? Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:18 PM 772 Views
Well, can you get more wrong? HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 03:45:08 PM 684 Views
Okay, that's a really weird or naive standard to judge SS by Isaac - 01/03/2013 05:25:11 PM 745 Views
Great; will you put that on a postcard to Cannoli, A2K, Rick Perry and the rest of your party? Joel - 01/03/2013 07:39:44 PM 764 Views
I don't think I'd be telling them anything they don't already know... I mostly agree with them Isaac - 02/03/2013 05:38:56 AM 884 Views
Means testing is flat out WRONG, and the contribution limit is a sticky debate HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:43:09 PM 688 Views
Tell that to him not me, I didn't express an opinion and my implied one obviously doesn't favor it Isaac - 02/03/2013 05:28:14 PM 826 Views
I was, I just hit the repy under the wrong post. He was the first to bering the two topics up. *NM* HyogaRott - 03/03/2013 04:09:34 AM 406 Views
It is insurance against old age poverty, not a longevity lottery. Joel - 04/03/2013 02:00:24 AM 805 Views
It is not insurance, it is a pension plan, that also contains an overpriced LT disability insurance. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:00:42 AM 791 Views
Social Security Insurance; says so right on the label. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:53:33 PM 937 Views
You can call it BedroomWindowVitamins but it does not change what it acutally IS. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 04:34:42 PM 719 Views
"Sustainable"=/="profitable;" bankruptcy was not always a given, as your fellows claim.. Joel - 04/03/2013 01:35:04 AM 698 Views
Sustainable often means profitable, they are not universally synonmous but both at once is ideal Isaac - 04/03/2013 12:25:45 PM 700 Views
That is the IDEAL, but NOT point: Sustainability needs no profit, yet profit ensures sustainability. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:48 PM 1146 Views
Your attacks on republican ideals would have more credit if you understood them random thoughts - 02/03/2013 04:27:34 AM 755 Views
An ironic charge, since their defenses of those ideals typically suffer from the same defect. Joel - 02/03/2013 04:51:32 AM 729 Views
I'm rubber you're glue, whatever you say bounces of me and sticks to you. nyah, nyah, nyah HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 12:58:10 PM 679 Views
"Unsustainable"=/="meeting monthly obligations for 75 YEARS and still having $2.5 trillion left." Joel - 04/03/2013 01:03:09 AM 799 Views
Please look up the definition of sustainable. Hint: "its worked so far" isn't it. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:25:19 AM 752 Views
"As it is currently constructed/funded" is one HELL of a qualifier. Joel - 04/03/2013 04:41:30 AM 822 Views
You just don't get it, or apparently are so in love with your political ideology you won't. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:58:15 AM 630 Views
I believe if you check civilizations record you will find the human population has steadily risen. Joel - 04/03/2013 05:08:38 AM 733 Views
*sigh* HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 12:15:22 PM 690 Views
Birth RATES have fallen; POPULATION steadily rose in every period except the Black Deaths peak. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:36 PM 959 Views
Re: Declining birth rates are the key HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 04:47:41 PM 788 Views
Ironic that you would make my point while arguing against random thoughts - 04/03/2013 06:12:29 PM 642 Views
? Joel - 11/03/2013 09:56:59 PM 803 Views
you mistate his posistion and then rationalize that you know what he really meant random thoughts - 13/03/2013 12:06:44 PM 654 Views
aH yes the great liberal investmetn/retirement plan that offers me a NEGATIGVE rate of return... HyogaRott - 02/03/2013 11:51:50 AM 664 Views
Do you sincerely believe people earning $14,560/year can afford investing 4% of it? Joel - 04/03/2013 12:53:30 AM 832 Views
*sigh* HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 03:43:08 AM 667 Views
I tried it with compound interest; $44.80/month at 4% for 50 years still does not get to $1.25 mill. Joel - 04/03/2013 04:24:51 AM 738 Views
Here are some clues. HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 04:37:39 AM 608 Views
It is math, not the Riddle of the Sphinx: EIther it adds up or does not. Joel - 04/03/2013 05:02:39 AM 757 Views
Math is simple - Either you know how to calculate it or you don't HyogaRott - 04/03/2013 11:55:24 AM 843 Views
Indeed. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:53:59 PM 750 Views
Re: Indeed. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 05:00:10 PM 935 Views
SS is supposed to supplement a proper pension, not provide your sole income after retirement moondog - 05/03/2013 03:53:03 AM 624 Views
Did you bother to actually read anything? HyogaRott - 05/03/2013 02:32:16 PM 696 Views
do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means? moondog - 05/03/2013 05:49:14 PM 763 Views
Re: do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means? --- yeah, I've BEEN there. HyogaRott - 05/03/2013 08:01:33 PM 731 Views
how about respond to a post with logic and civility instead of being a troll for once? moondog - 05/03/2013 11:03:00 PM 818 Views
All I have used is civility and logic, or least as much civility as was warrented. HyogaRott - 06/03/2013 04:28:04 AM 760 Views
yeah, it's my fault for stooping to your level.... moondog - 08/03/2013 07:22:24 PM 813 Views
Re: yeah, it's my fault for stooping to your level.... HyogaRott - 10/03/2013 01:42:26 PM 681 Views
i'm not going to keep going in circles so i will finish with this.... moondog - 11/03/2013 10:08:53 PM 1034 Views
No loss. HyogaRott - 13/03/2013 04:37:41 PM 619 Views
"Rah! Rah! Rah!" Can we please cut out all this blather and bile? Stephen - 05/03/2013 11:53:41 PM 695 Views
spoken like a true enemy of the state! moondog - 06/03/2013 12:54:38 AM 664 Views
Re: spoken like a true enemy of the state! Stephen - 08/03/2013 03:04:37 PM 725 Views
I was not trolling, but clarifying. Joel - 11/03/2013 09:53:48 PM 732 Views
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