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Social Security Insurance; says so right on the label. Joel Send a noteboard - 11/03/2013 09:53:33 PM

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View original postDo you give people money back each time they go a year without needing medical care? But you are concerned about compulsory participation, I understand; do you return malpractice premiums to every doctor who retires without filing a claim? No? Have you consulted your lawyer/priest about that? ;)

investment is to insurance like ice is to iguana, they both start with the same letter. Insurance is the transference of a monetary risk to another entity for a fee, called a premium. That being said, yes there are health insurance (and other types) that offer a premium refund mechanism, however they usually cost more so are a bad purchase (thought the MSA is a very good program). If you really want to be educated on what exactly insurance is and how it functions (and why you should therefore never purchase and extended warranty) we can have that conversation, though this really isn't the thread for it. Frankly we would need to begin by throwing out everything you think you know.

Probably so, but that suggests you are speaking more of RE-education than education, with all THAT suggests. ;)

Meanwhile, malpractice insurance remains compulsory for US doctors, whether or not they ever file a claim, just as SS is compulsory for all US workers whether or not they ever collect. Neither gets their money back if they never file a claim or receive benefits. The one exception might be doctors getting a refund if they never have a claim, but by your own admission that would cost them money anyway, so no sane person would advocate SS do the same.


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View original postQuite frankly, no, you can NOT be trusted to take care of yourself, because until SS >50% of Americans >65 lived in poverty. Today it is ~10%.

All hail the great nanny state...

One cannot argue with results. Except apparently some can, and miss the days when the majority of American and European elderly died in miserable, starving and disabled poverty, after which most of their few remaining assets (if any) went to creditors rather than their children. Is that what the GOP means by "repeal inheritance tax"? Because if everyone dies broke there is nothing to tax? ;)
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View original postHow is the payout capped? Like, when people hit 95 they say, "sorry, that is all the money you contributed; no more benefits for you." No, people who live to 120 keep getting benefits each month of every year, however much they paid. Since US life expectancy is 13 years higher than when SS was created it is not only reasonable but wise to proportionally increase the witholding limit. Again, there is more money in the trust fund now than six months ago, because most people have not yet hit this years witholding limit, and no one has been stupid enough to say, "hey, SS is going broke; why not declare yet another witholding 'holiday' and pretend the people enjoying it will not have to pay for it when they are 70?" Just removing the witholding limit would fund the supposed "unsustainable Ponzi scheme" indefinitely.

Monthly payout is capped, just like annual contribution is. No, removing the annual cap would not make SS permanently solvent. SS risks insolvency because the number of workers contributing, versus the number of individual receiving benefits has fallen below 2:1 (it started at 7:1). This is the inescapable problem that all Ponzi's collapse into.

Payment is uncapped; the only cap is on the payment each MONTH, every month, to age 90 or 190. If we must speak in misleadingly oversimplified terms, fine, but be consistent. The inescapabable problem into which Ponzis fall is that beneficiaries ultimately exceed contributors, which can never happen to Social Security, so it is no Ponzi—unless you contend there will eventually be more Americans >65 than <65, in which case you may want to consider a career for which you are better suited. :P That is why removing the witholding cap would most definitely make SS solvent; we need only look at its balance spring and summer INCREASES despite the contributor/beneficairy ratio (again, 2.73, not 2) to see that.

It is very VERY simple math, so I trust you will have no difficulty with it; for the sake of (your) argument I will use moondogs 6.2% witholding figure rather than your more "sustaining" but less accurate 7.5%:

2.73 (contributors/beneficiaries)X0.124 (witholding from employees and employers/self-employed)X$32,000 (2012 US median income)~$11,000/beneficiary.

So if we JUST removed the witholding cap (without changing benefits) we could pay every beneficiary $11,000/year, $916.66/month, AND NOT LOSE A DIME. In fact, we would have roughly $550,000 extra; I purposely rounded 916.66... down because preserving benefits trumps maximizing them. Above that number SS operates at a loss; below it SS is sustainable. I believe the figure you quoted for current average benefit was a little over 2/3 that sustainable one. We can use your 7.5% witholding figure if you prefer; that just increases the sustainable amount per beneficiary by 2.6%.

We can also determine the amount per beneficiary SS can sustainably pay through 2060 (the limit of reliable current population progjections.) Just substitute 1.99 (the lowest contributor/beneficiary ratio, in 2060) for 2.73:

1.99X0.124X32,000~$8000/year, or $666.66/month, or an even $700/month if we use your 7.5% witholding figure. Either is quite sustainable even though the projected 2060 contributor/beneficiary ratio is <2.

In other words, removing the witholding limit would make SS indefinitely sustainable even if we did nothing else, which, IIRC, IS EXACTLY WHAT I SAID.

We need not remove the witholding cap to get there, but that is probably more politically practical than either means testing or capping the monthly benefits at a smaller number that takes into account the fact no one pays a cent more than $7049.40 (6.2% of $113,700, the 2013 witholding cap) and most people pay considerably less. We can fiddle with witholding and/or benefit limits all sorts of ways to ensure higher sustainable benefits, but one thing the above math should make blindingly obvious to anyone with the mathematical acumen you claim is that Social Security is in no sense unsustainable. At this point, claiming otherwise can no longer be excused by possible ignorance, only condemned as deliberate dishonesty.

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Can You Name the Largest US Program to ANNUALLY Collect More Than It Spent for 75 Straight Years? - 28/02/2013 11:03:18 PM 1257 Views
It's the world's greatest Ponzi scheme, since the government forces us to give money to it. - 01/03/2013 01:05:05 PM 694 Views
Yes, "government forcing people to give money" defines a Ponzi; speeding tickets are Ponzis. - 01/03/2013 03:53:02 PM 812 Views
Good lord my friend..... - 02/03/2013 04:19:35 AM 737 Views
I will just link what Isaac said; maybe then you will pay attention to it. - 02/03/2013 04:56:34 AM 778 Views
I really think you terribly misread what I said *NM* - 02/03/2013 06:59:56 AM 409 Views
Yes he did. He has very poor reading comprehension skills. *NM* - 03/03/2013 01:07:59 AM 432 Views
I really do not think I did. - 04/03/2013 01:43:02 AM 812 Views
I'm pretty confident you have - 04/03/2013 11:49:19 AM 803 Views
We evidently disagree on what constitutes a Ponzi scheme. - 11/03/2013 09:56:27 PM 728 Views
No, I agree with a clear definiton, you seem not to want to absorb that - 11/03/2013 10:24:47 PM 868 Views
It is neither an investment nor fraudulent. - 12/03/2013 02:34:09 AM 932 Views
Okay, that's a really weird or naive standard to judge SS by - 01/03/2013 05:25:11 PM 745 Views
Great; will you put that on a postcard to Cannoli, A2K, Rick Perry and the rest of your party? - 01/03/2013 07:39:44 PM 764 Views
Your attacks on republican ideals would have more credit if you understood them - 02/03/2013 04:27:34 AM 755 Views
aH yes the great liberal investmetn/retirement plan that offers me a NEGATIGVE rate of return... - 02/03/2013 11:51:50 AM 664 Views
Do you sincerely believe people earning $14,560/year can afford investing 4% of it? - 04/03/2013 12:53:30 AM 832 Views
*sigh* - 04/03/2013 03:43:08 AM 667 Views
I tried it with compound interest; $44.80/month at 4% for 50 years still does not get to $1.25 mill. - 04/03/2013 04:24:51 AM 738 Views
Here are some clues. - 04/03/2013 04:37:39 AM 608 Views
It is math, not the Riddle of the Sphinx: EIther it adds up or does not. - 04/03/2013 05:02:39 AM 757 Views
Math is simple - Either you know how to calculate it or you don't - 04/03/2013 11:55:24 AM 843 Views
Indeed. - 11/03/2013 09:53:59 PM 750 Views
Re: Indeed. - 13/03/2013 05:00:10 PM 935 Views
SS is supposed to supplement a proper pension, not provide your sole income after retirement - 05/03/2013 03:53:03 AM 624 Views
Did you bother to actually read anything? - 05/03/2013 02:32:16 PM 696 Views
do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means? - 05/03/2013 05:49:14 PM 763 Views
Re: do *YOU* know what "living in poverty" means? --- yeah, I've BEEN there. - 05/03/2013 08:01:33 PM 731 Views
how about respond to a post with logic and civility instead of being a troll for once? - 05/03/2013 11:03:00 PM 818 Views
All I have used is civility and logic, or least as much civility as was warrented. - 06/03/2013 04:28:04 AM 760 Views
yeah, it's my fault for stooping to your level.... - 08/03/2013 07:22:24 PM 813 Views
Re: yeah, it's my fault for stooping to your level.... - 10/03/2013 01:42:26 PM 681 Views
i'm not going to keep going in circles so i will finish with this.... - 11/03/2013 10:08:53 PM 1034 Views
No loss. - 13/03/2013 04:37:41 PM 619 Views
"Rah! Rah! Rah!" Can we please cut out all this blather and bile? - 05/03/2013 11:53:41 PM 695 Views
spoken like a true enemy of the state! - 06/03/2013 12:54:38 AM 664 Views
Re: spoken like a true enemy of the state! - 08/03/2013 03:04:37 PM 724 Views
I was not trolling, but clarifying. - 11/03/2013 09:53:48 PM 732 Views

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