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Abortion is "not germane" to asking how one can reconcile opposing abortion while supporting guns? Joel Send a noteboard - 14/08/2013 12:48:21 AM

It is highly relevant, because the question asks explanation of a real distinction between the positions. Distinguishing between positions without referencing (let alone defining) either is practically a contradiction in terms. If one asks how A and B differ no satisfactory answer is possible by referencing neither A NOR B.


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View original postI focused on that statement (yours) throughout my response. The only time I addressed you (and should have said, "one," because I did not mean you specifically) was in conceding a point I repeatedly conceded: Doe v. Bolton made abortion too easy. I apologize if that was offensive, but I genuinely did make every effort to be as civil as possible; in future I will try harder to emulate the example provided.

You don't get it Joel, it is not whether or not I agreed in whole or part or not at all with your remarks it is that I never even mentioned abortion. I didn't consider the subject part of my reply, and moreover the individual ethics of abortion, much like the ethics of self-defense, really aren't germane to the OP. It was asking why pro-gun and pro-life, but why pro-life was not requiring explanation, he wasn't asking why conservatives oppose abortion, everyone knows why. We think it is a person. The question being posed, which as I said was a very foolish one, was why we think some people don't have that right and my answer was we don't believe any one can individually choose to to take away another's right to live, but they can be forgiven for taking a life if they credibly and reasonably believed doing so would prevent them self or another being harmed, or if the death was accidental. Those give forgiveness or mitigation, they are not hunting licenses.

Fair enough so far as it goes but, in my admittedly limited subjective experience, those who recognize a host of valid justifications for taking a life with a gun recognize few if any for taking one with abortion. That is a contradiction, inconsistency; a cognitive dissonance in the dual position all life is supremely sacrosanct and can only be taken to save that of another—except when it is NOT.
View original postThis, if you insist on viewing it as abortion that needs discussed, comes back to your point about no exceptions. A law does not need the exceptions included, the purpose is to recognize a fetus as a person, at which point all the normal exceptions apply. We do not need the law to specifically say "Abortion is allowed if the mother's life is credibly in danger" because it automatically is. The concept of a justifiable killing does not require the person meant to do you harm or even that you thought they did. This, at least, comes back to the OP, and justified killings. It isn't about guns, they are simply the most advantageous means of personal defense, any law even mentioning guns in regard to justified killings is a flawed and screwed up one and I'd argue the same applies to abortion. A killing was either accidental or not, either justified or not. If a fetus is a person then their status as a fetus has no more to do with that justification then a gun does, relevant to the specific case but not the law governing it. The specifics of a case might hinge on whether or not it was a pregnancy or if a gun was involved, but there's no need for the law to stipulate different rights of self-preservation applying because they are, because they don't. Thus abortion is exactly the same as self-defense, unless there is a reasonable perception someone's life is in grave and immediate danger no single person just gets to decide if other people live or die, and if it is grave and imminent they still must answer to others and show that it was so. If they can not they may be tried and may be punished if a jury can not be convinced that they have not raised reasonable doubt about the death.

Were exceptions superfluous as justifiable homicide, abortion ban authors would not VOLUNTEER to state rape prevents pregnancy, and that abortion bans therefore require no rape exception. Obviously pregnancy from rape does not, in itself, endanger life or limb, which threats I personally consider necessary justification for abortion. That is tangential to the real problem though: Non-explicit legal exemptions—whatever their nature—have a dismal record of efficacy. We can say blanket abortion bans assume exceptions to save a pregnant womans life, "legitimate rape," or anything else, but unless bans EXPLICITLY state such exceptions prosecutors could (and would) counter that, unlike (other) homicide laws, recently proposed and enacted abortion bans state NO exceptions.

In other words, defense of ones own or anothers life legally justifies homicide BECAUSE LAWS AGAINST HOMICIDE SAY SO, explicitly, not because law invariably bows to unspoken common sense and decency (it quite frequently and flagrantly thumbs its nose at both, actually.) Legal exceptions are always absent where absent from law (that is a tautology, after all.) Virtually NOTHING can (or at least, should) be taken for granted within a courtroom, or a legislative chamber. Most conservatives are keenly aware of that each and every time any gun regulation is proposed (often even in reevaluating existing ones,) but tend to overlook it when considering or even crafting abortion regulations (or outright bans.)


View original postThus, there is no contradiction in the philosophy. You don't have to agree with it, but that's how it is. The life of a person may not be taken intentionally, period, if the thing is done it is now upon them to explain their reasoning and prove it was more likely than not justified, if they can not do that then the state must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that it was not justified to actually punish you. It does not change that killing a person is wrong, anymore than it isn't wrong to bust someone's window but becomes justified if you do it to save their child from a fire.

I comprehend the philosophy; as Aristotle noted, grasping a position does not require accepting it. However, and once again, the issue is not many "pro-lifers" broadly, fiercely, opposing abortion access and supporting gun access on "a principle that says that you do not take life without a good cause." The issue is parsing (or denying) "good cause" for one but not the other. I dare say that is so for nearly everyone, regardless of issue or stance; as others have noted, many pro-choice anti-gun advocates play the same game in reverse, demanding guns have strict narrow laws yet abortion little or none. Very few on either side of guns or abortion oppose OR support them under ALL circumstances. Virtually everyone recognizes there sometimes is and sometimes is not "good cause(s)" to take a life via guns AND abortion; the usual sticking point is specifying that cause.

Hence, while the rule of thumb is "it's legal if there's no law agin' it," when there IS a law agin' it, it's ALWAYS illegal unless that law specifies some exception.

In a discussion where one side assumes the consequent (i.e. all the unborn are people) and implies a monopoly on just cause, my civility is near its limit. In terms of "hyperbolic invention," VERY few pro-choice people support casually killing fetuses, or even blastocysts, whether or not they believe they are or might be people, so that was a rather extreme strawman. Likewise, very few anti-gun people would casually watch their familys slaughter rather than pick up a gun and defend them. We all recognize "a principle that says that you do not take life without a good cause;" the OP implicitly recognizes that principle. It is unique to no one side and thus grants none any moral ascendancy. The questions are what qualifies, who decides and for whom.

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This message last edited by Joel on 14/08/2013 at 12:52:18 AM
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I don't understand many things about Conservatives but one thing baffles me more than most. - 12/08/2013 05:39:06 AM 1557 Views
You are missing something. - 12/08/2013 06:01:27 AM 937 Views
Because guns would never be misused if we all had one. - 12/08/2013 06:02:25 AM 887 Views
I think you're confusing "pro life" with "anti killing." - 12/08/2013 07:34:14 AM 1181 Views
*dingdingding*. We have a winner! in addition... - 12/08/2013 12:11:06 PM 970 Views
Eseentially my position - 12/08/2013 12:26:19 PM 867 Views
I know right? - 12/08/2013 08:16:32 AM 1047 Views
Conversely, how can liberals be pro-abortion but anti-death penalty? - 12/08/2013 12:28:24 PM 1040 Views
In my case, because of the areas certainty exists and those where it is impossible. - 13/08/2013 04:14:15 AM 1058 Views
Well. You know where you stand. *NM* - 13/08/2013 01:50:02 PM 492 Views
At any given moment, at least. - 13/08/2013 07:01:44 PM 882 Views
I'm baffled you find it bizarre honestly - 12/08/2013 04:14:01 PM 919 Views
So abortion is OK to save a pregnant womans life? Prevent her maiming? A childs lifelong torment? - 13/08/2013 05:00:06 AM 915 Views
Joel, I'm going to strongly suggest you don't try to discuss anything political with me - 13/08/2013 06:31:02 AM 898 Views
"...all of this operates on a principle that says that you do not take life without a good cause..." - 13/08/2013 08:10:28 AM 1041 Views
You are still missing the point, but at least you're trying - 13/08/2013 06:48:34 PM 926 Views
Abortion is "not germane" to asking how one can reconcile opposing abortion while supporting guns? - 14/08/2013 12:48:21 AM 887 Views
*NM* - 19/08/2013 04:12:14 PM 391 Views

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