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For what it is worth, you and I are not so far apart on abortion. Joel Send a noteboard - 14/08/2013 03:22:07 PM

View original postWith that philosophy in mind, abortion is almost never justified. By the estimates of a pro-abortion group, there are something like 800 medically necessary abortions performed every year (and that stat was not cited in an "only 800" context, it was cited in a "how dare you deprive these 800 women" manner). Out of thousands. I can except abortion as an unavoidable consequence of a necessary medical procedure, but not as an end in and of itself. Things like "she's depressed and will probably kill herself if not permitted an abortion" only mandate a 120th trimester abortion to be performed on the "medical professional" who might possibly make such a statement. IMO, the death of a mother who would kill her baby to survive is not much loss to society or her theoretically beloved and loving family.

Regarding the whole rape issue, the circumstances of conception are immaterial. However unfortunate the mother's victimization, compounding it with the murder of a child, even if unwanted and unloved, is not justifiable. What I find inconsistent is the attitude of the nonreligious who don't believe in an afterlife being willing to sign off on the curtailing of a human being's only life. My own belief that the pain of the induced abortion is the last suffering that soul will experience for the rest of its eternal existence would seem to be more justifying of abortion than the willingness to consign that creature to oblivion before it ever gets a chance to experience anything.


Nominally, at least; I respect the view only the lives of babies and pregnant women (not manner of conception) matter. However, it is logically as well as morally offensive when people—especially legislators and/or DOCTORS (much less those who are both)—state rape prevents pregnancy, solely to rationalize abortion bans without rape exceptions. Any physician claiming that should sue his alma mater for recovery of tuition, because they were manifestly defrauded. People who believe fetuses or even zygotes are people at every stage should have the moral courage to make that case and let it and their careers stand or fall on merit, not knowingly fabricate false justifications. Lying to prove positions that should stand on merit strongly implies awareness they CANNOT, doubly invalidating them.

Claiming mental stress medically justifies abortion any time before delivery disgusts me just as much—but it is important to recall Doe v. Bolton, not Roe v. Wade, did that. Roes ruling merely said (in essence) "Fetuses cannot be proven people nor survive beyond the womb in the first trimester; talk with your doctor, then use your best judgement." I do not share but do respect objections to that, but it did not give abortion carte blanche at all times with practically NO reason: Doe did.

Seriously, Doe defines "medical" causes (particularly mental ones) so broadly the girl who dropped her newborn in a dumpster and went back inside to prom a few years ago could have "justified" abortion via Doe: Missing prom would have saddened, angered and frustrated her, which is mental stress; medical cause. The only effective difference between that and what she actually did is one is perfectly legal since Doe. The worst part is the SCOTUS was so desperate to end the legal abortion debate permanently it concurrently issued both rulings on the same day in the same document, so they are inseparable (guaranteeing just what concurrence was meant to forever end: Endless passionate abortion debates.)

So we are stuck with a uniquely all-or-nothing choice. As noted in response to Issac, even liberal posterchild Norway forbids abortion after week 12 unless pregnancy is a serious PHYSICAL threat to mother and/or fetus. We, on the other hand, continue fiercely debating whether to impose such restrictions at 24 weeks or "only" 20. Abortions for all or abortions for none; we have not yet advanced to President Kangs level of sophistication.

Few things would please me more than being rid of Doe (by itself, that would bring back no coathangers, but would forever obviate concerns about people exercising "retroactive birth control" right up until delivery.) Yet doctor-legislators claiming rape prevents pregnancy makes their sincerity rather suspect. Trust is critical, because neither side will even consider negotiations while the other proceeds in bad faith, not when one of the few points of agreement is that many peoples lives are at stake. Brazenly clumsily lying to people yet expecting them to depend on unwritten promises is not only unreasonable, but insulting.

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I don't understand many things about Conservatives but one thing baffles me more than most. - 12/08/2013 05:39:06 AM 1557 Views
You are missing something. - 12/08/2013 06:01:27 AM 937 Views
Because guns would never be misused if we all had one. - 12/08/2013 06:02:25 AM 887 Views
I think you're confusing "pro life" with "anti killing." - 12/08/2013 07:34:14 AM 1181 Views
*dingdingding*. We have a winner! in addition... - 12/08/2013 12:11:06 PM 970 Views
Eseentially my position - 12/08/2013 12:26:19 PM 867 Views
So abortion is OK to save a pregnant womans life then? - 13/08/2013 03:35:58 AM 1143 Views
It sounds like you have a very specific view of what each position constitutes. - 13/08/2013 05:20:29 AM 1103 Views
Re: It sounds like you have a very specific view of what each position constitutes. - 14/08/2013 01:17:09 PM 944 Views
For what it is worth, you and I are not so far apart on abortion. - 14/08/2013 03:22:07 PM 1212 Views
Re: So abortion is OK to save a pregnant womans life then? - 14/08/2013 12:50:07 PM 874 Views
I know right? - 12/08/2013 08:16:32 AM 1047 Views
Conversely, how can liberals be pro-abortion but anti-death penalty? - 12/08/2013 12:28:24 PM 1040 Views
In my case, because of the areas certainty exists and those where it is impossible. - 13/08/2013 04:14:15 AM 1058 Views
Well. You know where you stand. *NM* - 13/08/2013 01:50:02 PM 492 Views
At any given moment, at least. - 13/08/2013 07:01:44 PM 882 Views
*NM* - 19/08/2013 04:12:14 PM 391 Views

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