Active Users:176 Time:17/05/2024 11:50:54 AM
Oh, I got that. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 07/11/2014 04:50:38 AM

I suppose there is indeed no good reason to make insurance obligatory. How you reconcile that stance with a Catholic morality,

It continually blows my mind that people assume I am dead set on imposing private moral beliefs on others. If I ran a hospital or medical practice, I WOULD perceive an obligation to help people in need. I can and do give money to people who need it, or what assistance I can to anybody I encounter who needs it. I simply do not believe in compelling people to follow my conscience and dispose of their property, time and skills according to a moral code they might or might not share. I also do not believe that emergency life-saving treatments create an undue burden on society to the degree that people can be rightly compelled to be insured. Or that absent other artificial strains on the marketplace creating undue hardships in obtaining medical care, the burden would be nearly as great on emergency facilities.
or should we get rid of taxpayer-funded primary and secondary education too, while we're at it?).
Absolutely. It is no more the taxpayer's obligation to educate your children than it is to feed, clothe, shelter or medically care for them. Arguably, a better case could be made for all of those BEFORE education. Our country and civilization were all built by men who never set foot in a public school. The unquestionably superior educations available in private schools, that spend less per student than public schools, pay teachers less, and have fewer labor restrictions on what they can make those teachers do, all indicate that not only is tax payer funded education unnecessary, it is actually obstructing superior alternatives.

Additionally, my point about the coexistence of publicly and privately funded systems in competition forcing the former to raise its standards of quality (and thus spend more), and the latter to raise its prices due to increased costs, holds true for education. Without the obscene tax burdens of public schools (not to mention regulatory hassles that serve to protect the public education monopoly), private education would be far more affordable.

Hell, I'm not even convinced of the necessity for school as we know it. This is the age of the internet, where everyone owns multiple devices capable of accessing it. The entire country could "attend" a lecture by a single professor. This is not a 19th century nation of primarily farming communities, where the best way to teach is put all the kids in the only building in town that has a set of encyclopedias.

I think a better system would be some sort of (privately) administered aptitude tests, that you could take at your time of choosing, to certify you possess certain levels of math or reading skills, and you could simply refer an employer or other interested party to your accreditation. Higher and more specific or specialized education could also be more streamlined. While I agree that it is a good idea to be well-informed on a variety of subjects, that is not what is going on with college electives. When my brother failed his nursing exams, he took courses that had nothing to do with nursing, but in subjects he enjoyed to inflate his GPA until the next opportunity to reapply to the nursing program came around. How did that contribute to his education or the advancement of his knowledge of nursing? All he did was game the system. Why shouldn't an adult be able to make the choice to concentrate exclusively on relevant courses to his degree, and skip Sociology or Literature or History if he is going to be an engineer. Greater privatization is the best way to obtain such flexibility.


I think we definitely agree that health insurance needs to be something people are in charge of themselves, instead of it being linked to their job. The difference is that I would support a "mandate", forcing people to get at least a minimum of insurance, and you would not, largely because you disagree with my basic premise that at the end of the day sick people have to be treated whether they are insured or not (and so for me the choice is merely between having them treated entirely on the taxpayer's dime, or at least partially on their own).
It's more that I see mandatory treatment as the first step on a slope that leads right back down here again. I am not remotely opposed to a professional ethic mandating the treatment and care of sick or injured people, or a law requiring the extension of aid for immediate life-threatening conditions. I also believe that the existence of government programs to provide a safety net allows a attitude of carelessness to develop, and allows people to turn a blind eye to others in need. After all, they are already paying taxes for this sort of thing...

I believe that absent the impositions of bureaucracy and corporate practices creating massive admin & clerical burdens, restricting the options and inflating the costs, the burden of providing care for the indigent would not sufficiently strain the industry or society as to make a minimal insurance necessary.




Interesting. I wasn't aware of that, do you have a link or reference?

In any case, I definitely admit that life expectancy is only partially linked to quality of health care - certainly factors like nutrition, violence in the society, and even climate play a certain role.



Sure, but how is your alternative better? If you aren't rich, you either won't have insurance at all and won't even live to see your "death panel", or you'll have limited insurance that won't get you any better result than the socialized medicine would, and most likely worse. If you're rich, you probably do have better insurance than that (as a side note, you can still have additional insurance in most countries with socialized systems), but even if paying absolutely any price for any extra day of life is worth it for you, the result is ever-increasing insurance premiums for everyone else. And even an insurance company will draw the line somewhere - the only difference is that it'll be a company making the call instead of a "death panel".

But you'd at least have the option of a relationship with that death panel. When you get to pick who's going to make the decisions for you, and when you have a whole family that might be prone to abruptly switch to competitor if they don't like how you handle grandpa's treatment, you're probably going to like the decisions they make a lot more.

The problem with just about ANY societal issue these days is that there is no simple solution, where you change one thing and it improves that thing, with no negative repercussions elsewhere. We've created an interdependent system of great complexity that has become self-perpetuating. Emotional cri de ceour such as the original poster is prone to might get people all het up and bothered, but there is no easy fix for their problems, such as by passing a law that will specifically prohibit what people believe is the cause of that person's problem. If you say, forbid insurance companies from refusing to pay for pre-existing conditions, they are going to adopt other practices to cover the costs. We've built a leaky dyke and Obama and moondog can only point out new holes and demand fingers to plug them up. Maybe its time we learned to tolerate damp feet, rather than being pinned in one place perpetually holding back a flood. Now we're at the point where the medical industry is not just carrying the costs of providing medical care, but also of supporting an entrenched bureaucracy and clerical industry throughout the medical provider, insurance and governmental regulatory agency portions of it. There are a lot of people invested in keeping government, doctors and insurance companies unable to function without each other, and all providing mutual masturbatory perks in order to defend the status quo. Corporations provide political donations, so insurance companies can claim favors from the government that protect them from many forms of consumer competition. From their perspective, it is much more efficient to sell group plans to employers, than service individuals like car insurance companies do, or cell phone networks, or other service providers. The established corporations like stringent rules on how they provide service, because it prevents competition from arising.

The only guaranteed way of making ANY service or commodity provider responsive to customer wishes is through competition, which is why corporations, when push comes to shove, favor regulation of their industries. Regulation insulates them from competition, and allows them to narrow their focus on meeting the regulatory conditions, secure in the knowledge that they will not have to respond to unexpected challenges, because all their competition is jumping through the same hoops. A hamburger chain that becomes too fixated on a particular unpopular product has to worry about a rival chain coming up with something different. But if the government requires that they all serve specific burgers, and outlaws a bunch of other foods from being sold in burger chains, that sort of regulation closes off entire areas of concern. Rather than a free form brawl, it becomes a limited boxing match, so they only have to worry about punches above the belt. They don't have to fear another opponent jumping in, or a surprise kick.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
Reply to message
/US elections: "I'm scared I'm going to die before [Medicaid expansion] comes" - 04/11/2014 10:15:29 PM 1087 Views
*HA* - 05/11/2014 02:48:22 AM 507 Views
can you explain what that ad is about ? - 05/11/2014 06:25:09 AM 526 Views
it refers to voter registration and IDs - 05/11/2014 08:02:46 AM 545 Views
you summed it up quite nicely, thanks - 05/11/2014 05:15:39 PM 464 Views
Oh please. - 05/11/2014 09:51:32 PM 635 Views
only one party specifically mentions keeping "the wrong people" from voting, though - 05/11/2014 10:10:43 PM 495 Views
What a load of crap - 07/11/2014 04:20:38 AM 487 Views
sorry, i missed where you identifed as a woman in a previous post - 13/11/2014 12:18:42 AM 629 Views
he is refering to all the political ads on tv *NM* - 05/11/2014 05:42:37 PM 224 Views
Who doesn't have to identify themselves? Totally serious. - 05/11/2014 09:40:41 PM 578 Views
the point of ID laws is solely to restrict the votes of specific groups - 05/11/2014 10:07:00 PM 477 Views
Rhode Island's voter ID law was sponsored by a black legislator - 06/11/2014 11:30:57 AM 475 Views
you are obviously not caring to pay attention -- ID laws do more than just require IDs - 06/11/2014 09:37:32 PM 483 Views
You cannot be this much of an idiot. - 07/11/2014 03:40:02 AM 525 Views
Rhode Island's voter ID law was sponsored by a black legislator - 06/11/2014 11:30:58 AM 463 Views
Black people don't have photo ID? Why? - 06/11/2014 05:09:39 PM 490 Views
North Carolina's law forbids student IDs as valid form of ID and does not recognize other state IDs - 06/11/2014 09:41:52 PM 464 Views
Why should out of state college students vote in local elections? - 06/11/2014 10:35:13 PM 482 Views
Re: Why should out of state college students vote in local elections? - 07/11/2014 03:41:36 AM 563 Views
Students are not residents, they are guest - 07/11/2014 04:14:11 AM 547 Views
Re: Students are not residents, they are guest - 07/11/2014 02:33:43 PM 596 Views
Re: Students are not residents, they are guest - 13/11/2014 12:42:38 AM 576 Views
Are you fucking stupid or what? - 20/11/2014 02:52:24 AM 599 Views
please stop with the stupid comparisons of student ID to gun permits - 07/11/2014 04:07:16 AM 500 Views
I'll tell you what it is here... - 06/11/2014 09:57:35 PM 509 Views
Interesting. - 07/11/2014 03:21:48 AM 567 Views
[citation needed] - 12/11/2014 11:58:57 PM 468 Views
mutiple surgries and dozen of trips to er. sounds like she is getting care *NM* - 05/11/2014 05:44:39 PM 234 Views
$500k in debt for no insurance b/c her state decided to spite her to get back at Obama *NM* - 05/11/2014 08:37:58 PM 215 Views

Reply to Message