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I guess one would have to see the documentary to really judge. Legolas Send a noteboard - 23/02/2010 08:58:47 PM
At least going by what he told me (I'll assume it's true for the sake of argument), the documentary had little to no science backing it up and was extremely one-sided. If you had replaced "Mixed-Race" with "Aryan" I think plenty of people would consider it propaganda.

But as Celia points out, the point is genetically valid, so saying "it's useful to have new blood in the gene pool" is perfectly defensible. If I thought the documentary was really telling everybody to marry a Turk or Arab and how marriages between ethnic Germans (or whatever) are bad, I might think differently about it, but I'd have to see some pretty convincing evidence before I'll buy that something that ludicrous was actually broadcasted.
Wait, so this restaurant isn't McDonalds? I thought it was. I'd would definitely call it Mimeburgers or whatever if that's the name, but everyone was calling it McDonalds, so I assumed they were indeed talking about McDonalds.

The restaurant chain is called Quick, as stated in the original article. Admittedly, it's a total rip-off of McDonalds, but it's an entirely different company all the same, a French one which according to the article is even largely owned by a state investment company (which I had no idea about). And in France and Belgium, Quick is a competitor on equal footing to McDonalds. I don't know who of the Americans started talking about McDonalds instead, but I found it funny. :P
And I don't blame them for wanting to limit American cultural influence either. They are France, not America Jr.

Could've fooled me, what with the raging nationalism and "let's put a French flag in every classroom!". :P
Yes, I'm actually quite aware of that, but I didn't want to compound the issue. I turn into a raging volcano of vitriol when talking about Elsass-Lothringen and France's fairly sucessful de-Germanization of the area, but regardless of that, I don't want to see the same happen to French culture. I want to get the other cultures out from under france's boot, yes, but I also want to see french culture remain. And I don't even like France :P

I really can't agree that that would be "compounding the issue". On the contrary, it's extremely relevant to the discussion at hand - France was not some monolithic culture before they had large numbers of Muslims. The European countries are very different from America because until fairly recently they had far less cultural mixture and intermingling *within one and the same location*, but in many European countries there's still been multiculturality, multilinguism etc. for centuries, by having culturally different regions within the same country.

Something interesting in this regard is what some Swiss newspapers dragged up from their country's history after the infamous minaret ban: that in the 1890s, Swiss voters passed a remarkably similar proposal, banning the construction of synagogues. I don't say that to draw misguided parallels between anti-Semitism and the immigration-sceptic movement (to use a less loaded term than "Islamophobic";), but to point out that this kind of struggle and the feeling that the local identity is under threat isn't really that new.
No, I don't think everything was better in the past. One drawback of ethnic nations is the oppression of other ethnic groups. But those were pre-existing cultural groups that France conquered/oppressed, not people immigrating to France. Obviously it is wrong to make the former be French, but I don't think it is wrong to expect people voluntarily moving to France to assimilate.

I don't either, but then most of them do assimilate. In fact, one might say that a large part of the problem is that they assimilate far too well - in the wrong regards. You can say many bad things about the Islamic world, but until very recently, and as far as I know even lasting to this day, they have one remarkable characteristic: very low levels of crime, compared to similarly poor countries elsewhere. Then significant numbers of them moved to Europe, and now the largest part of the problems European countries have with these Muslim immigrants lie in the crime levels among their youth, and the way they make people feel unsafe in some neighbourhoods. Where does all that crime suddenly come from? Certainly not from Islam, and not from their home countries or home culture. The large majority of the actually devout Muslims in Western-Europe - not really as large a group as you might think - are law-obedient people, model citizens in many regards. The bad apples, the criminals, those aren't exactly big believers for the most part. Yeah, sure, you get some of the worst extremists turning to violence, but what kind of percentages are we talking about then?
I just worry about Europe. In their quest to avoid the former situation, they seem to have become lax about the latter, and it worries me. It worries me for all of Europe (France just happens to be the country we're talking about right now). But everything I've said about france I would say about the other European nations as well. Even Poland :P

Yes, but really, as I just said elsewhere, not every country is the same and not every situation is the same. France has a long and far from glorious history in the countries that most of their immigrants originate from, which has both positive (most immigrants know some French even before coming to France, as it's the language of the elite in Morocco and Algeria) and negative side-effects. For all that Sarkozy whines about burqas, the main issues that exist with the Muslim minorities in France are really quite unrelated to Islam or to a failure of integration (excepting one important factor which is the way the conservative gender relations in Islam, combined with "new" Western permissivity, openness and less respect for authority figures results in horribly spoiled and authority-challenging Muslim boys).
Also, there are still a few Breton Nationalists around? That makes my heart happy :)

Uh, well, I think there are still some people around who speak the language... I'm not sure if there's much of a separatist movement (I only know the one in Savoye gets like 0.5% of the vote there, but then Savoye doesn't have its own language and all).
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French fast food chain goes halal - 19/02/2010 06:34:59 AM 1493 Views
that isn't unusual at all...I don't see the big deal - 19/02/2010 06:42:58 AM 486 Views
...how is it "discriminatory?" - 19/02/2010 06:49:24 AM 950 Views
just as a note - 19/02/2010 01:06:30 PM 569 Views
(It wasn't a reference to Hinduism) - 19/02/2010 05:29:40 PM 580 Views
yah. that's hinduism - 19/02/2010 05:52:41 PM 613 Views
Makes sense - 19/02/2010 06:12:49 PM 589 Views
Not necessarily prejudiced or bigots - 19/02/2010 12:03:17 PM 878 Views
Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 12:58:20 PM 637 Views
it's not discrimination in the slightest - 19/02/2010 01:13:03 PM 758 Views
That was my point - 19/02/2010 01:22:55 PM 636 Views
sorry - 19/02/2010 01:29:11 PM 595 Views
No problem - 19/02/2010 02:02:46 PM 582 Views
Re: Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 01:44:27 PM 594 Views
Re: Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 02:15:37 PM 746 Views
Re: Not sure that works - 19/02/2010 02:33:30 PM 834 Views
dude. Every time anyone makes a choice, it's discrimination. - 19/02/2010 02:40:18 PM 665 Views
Re: dude. Every time anyone makes a choice, it's discrimination. - 19/02/2010 03:22:14 PM 751 Views
yes, how dare a shop specialize - 19/02/2010 03:44:59 PM 576 Views
Indeed *NM* - 19/02/2010 03:53:28 PM 318 Views
...I don't think that's a thing? - 19/02/2010 05:31:52 PM 617 Views
To the contrary - 19/02/2010 07:07:40 PM 654 Views
the restaurant does not have 100% halal food. - 19/02/2010 07:40:52 PM 602 Views
It was more of an answer to beetnemesis's hypothetical comment - 19/02/2010 08:18:58 PM 711 Views
I thought that they were still serving fish, at least? *NM* - 20/02/2010 02:24:21 AM 381 Views
hahahaha - 20/02/2010 01:01:07 AM 684 Views
Re: hahahaha - 20/02/2010 04:10:31 AM 623 Views
Interesting - 20/02/2010 04:01:17 AM 630 Views
Keep in mind that France doesn't have remotely near as many fastfood restaurants as the US... - 19/02/2010 01:23:49 PM 822 Views
but what's wrong with eating halal meat? - 19/02/2010 01:33:17 PM 654 Views
Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 02:06:38 PM 745 Views
but is it the jews and observant christians complaining? - 19/02/2010 02:30:58 PM 581 Views
I've no clue - 19/02/2010 02:46:53 PM 761 Views
why would they be serving pork at a fast food anyways? - 19/02/2010 02:53:36 PM 574 Views
Well normally bacon is considered pork - 19/02/2010 03:07:45 PM 584 Views
Dude, it's France. They don't do English breakfasts. - 19/02/2010 03:19:48 PM 727 Views
American Breakfast, the english stole it from us - 19/02/2010 03:36:42 PM 681 Views
They put salt on their fries here, tons of it in fact... - 19/02/2010 03:48:06 PM 710 Views
Re: They put salt on their fries here, tons of it in fact... - 19/02/2010 04:16:22 PM 718 Views
Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 02:31:17 PM 601 Views
from what we discussed in Meat Sciene - 19/02/2010 02:35:59 PM 655 Views
Oh? - 19/02/2010 02:42:57 PM 683 Views
you could probably argue that it is less humane - 19/02/2010 02:54:32 PM 562 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 04:03:41 PM 816 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 04:51:14 PM 719 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 04:54:26 PM 784 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 05:03:28 PM 553 Views
Re: Not a theologian, are we? - 19/02/2010 06:10:50 PM 579 Views
Upper tip - 19/02/2010 06:14:06 PM 530 Views
Re: but what's wrong with eating halal meat? - 19/02/2010 02:33:14 PM 708 Views
+1 - 19/02/2010 07:07:36 PM 581 Views
It is a MacDonalds not public service provider - 19/02/2010 08:11:36 PM 587 Views
Re: Keep in mind that France doesn't have remotely near as many fastfood restaurants as the US... - 19/02/2010 01:57:15 PM 720 Views
That's what I was thinking too. - 19/02/2010 06:04:02 PM 747 Views
You think the reasons are as objective as that ? - 19/02/2010 02:24:36 PM 545 Views
I wouldn't exactly call the reasons I named "objective", myself. - 19/02/2010 02:37:56 PM 667 Views
Haha, yeah - 19/02/2010 07:24:00 PM 580 Views
Simply put : Many are afraid France is being taken over by the Muslims. - 19/02/2010 02:14:19 PM 698 Views
Re: Simply put : Many are afraid France is being taken over by the Muslims. - 19/02/2010 05:02:18 PM 611 Views
Are you refering to something specific ? - 19/02/2010 07:18:38 PM 617 Views
Re: Are you refering to something specific ? - 19/02/2010 07:21:35 PM 537 Views
In a sense that's what blocked the inclusion of Turkey into the EU. - 19/02/2010 07:26:51 PM 533 Views
Re: In a sense that's what blocked the inclusion of Turkey into the EU. - 19/02/2010 07:30:33 PM 572 Views
The question there is what's pretext and what's actual reason. - 19/02/2010 08:53:44 PM 606 Views
Re: The question there is what's pretext and what's actual reason. - 19/02/2010 08:55:53 PM 656 Views
Why are such politicians automatically "crazy" - 19/02/2010 10:16:53 PM 700 Views
yep. *NM* - 20/02/2010 12:09:56 PM 276 Views
Really can't see why people would get so worked up - 19/02/2010 03:57:37 PM 533 Views
No big deal.. - 19/02/2010 04:16:08 PM 615 Views
i can't see why it matters that they did. i think it's great. *NM* - 19/02/2010 05:23:44 PM 345 Views
So, what is the difference between Halal Beef and normal beef? *NM* - 19/02/2010 07:06:21 PM 275 Views
the way it is killed. *NM* - 19/02/2010 07:26:02 PM 377 Views
I wonder how teh Saudis or Iranians would react... - 19/02/2010 08:51:11 PM 593 Views
most halal foods would always qualify as kosher, i believe. - 20/02/2010 02:26:49 AM 525 Views
Nope. But it does work the other way around. *NM* - 20/02/2010 04:50:26 AM 299 Views
fair enough, then *NM* - 20/02/2010 05:56:00 AM 437 Views
yupp, kosher counts as halal, halal is not kosher though *NM* - 20/02/2010 12:55:30 PM 393 Views
So let me get this straight... - 20/02/2010 08:42:04 AM 725 Views
wow. first of all FRANCE is changing nothing - 20/02/2010 06:28:27 PM 695 Views
I think you missed his point - 20/02/2010 10:12:18 PM 591 Views
There are many answers one could give, but the most basic one is quite simple... - 20/02/2010 10:20:14 PM 717 Views
And yet having come of their own free will... - 20/02/2010 11:11:51 PM 575 Views
Way to read half a post. I am impressed. - 21/02/2010 12:10:39 AM 591 Views
It always starts small. - 21/02/2010 12:32:11 AM 557 Views
Awesome, you figured out their master plan!! - 21/02/2010 02:06:27 AM 646 Views
Like I said... - 21/02/2010 08:43:32 AM 610 Views
and really... in this case it's a private enterprise we're talking about - 21/02/2010 12:55:27 AM 562 Views
exactly. *NM* - 21/02/2010 02:06:57 AM 409 Views
Oh I know, don't get me wrong. I was trying to clarify *NM* - 21/02/2010 04:13:19 AM 327 Views
I didn't miss it, I just thought it wasn't worth noting. - 21/02/2010 02:11:14 AM 797 Views
Re: wow. first of all FRANCE is changing nothing - 20/02/2010 10:13:12 PM 763 Views
Yes, i'm sure there is no other restaurant in that whole area. - 21/02/2010 02:04:29 AM 718 Views
that's not the point. - 21/02/2010 08:46:14 AM 625 Views
dude. your 'THEY" did not do anything. - 21/02/2010 03:01:48 PM 683 Views
So if your French every restaurant should only be allowed to serve what you want served? - 22/02/2010 07:18:00 PM 561 Views
I don't think French society should be forced to consume Islamic food. - 23/02/2010 01:31:03 AM 576 Views
No one is forcing anyone to do anything. - 23/02/2010 02:47:56 AM 620 Views
Sure they are. - 23/02/2010 03:05:12 AM 605 Views
well they apparently still have 354 of that particular restaurant - 23/02/2010 03:20:07 AM 569 Views
Don't you get it? - 23/02/2010 03:51:09 AM 553 Views
Actually they're not ragheads. - 23/02/2010 03:43:14 PM 535 Views
If you have a sarcasm meter, you might want to switch it on. *NM* - 23/02/2010 05:37:41 PM 277 Views
Indeed, 354 throughout the whole of France, which actually isn't that many. - 23/02/2010 03:42:30 PM 594 Views
how many French people starved to death before McDonalds opened? - 23/02/2010 04:30:32 PM 612 Views
Millions - 23/02/2010 04:41:23 PM 557 Views
Huh. - 23/02/2010 06:10:17 PM 568 Views
They are not forced to do anything - 23/02/2010 04:41:35 PM 545 Views
So Muslims should be forced to eat French food because the French are lazy to open more restaurants? - 23/02/2010 04:43:13 AM 514 Views
well don't you see? - 23/02/2010 12:41:40 PM 598 Views
Re: well don't you see? - 23/02/2010 05:02:16 PM 559 Views
I agree with you. *NM* - 23/02/2010 05:10:53 PM 256 Views
This is meant to be an edit... - 23/02/2010 05:14:23 PM 618 Views
I agree, Bekah, but it's not like there's not a middle ground - 23/02/2010 05:25:30 PM 558 Views
It's the sheer numbers that are worrisome - 23/02/2010 06:25:17 PM 687 Views
That assumes a great deal - 23/02/2010 06:52:41 PM 685 Views
Re: That assumes a great deal - 23/02/2010 08:00:28 PM 714 Views
Very true. Test case: Lebanon - 24/02/2010 12:26:43 AM 544 Views
Really? - 24/02/2010 10:02:18 AM 552 Views
What he's referring to... - 24/02/2010 10:20:22 AM 720 Views
Oh that, that I knew with the political system - 24/02/2010 10:57:08 AM 552 Views
Re: This is meant to be an edit... - 23/02/2010 05:43:03 PM 763 Views
Well, biologically speaking, it is healthier for the gene pool. - 23/02/2010 06:55:11 PM 576 Views
"Propaganda"? Kind of exaggerating there... - 23/02/2010 07:48:39 PM 662 Views
How is it not propaganda? - 23/02/2010 08:31:12 PM 744 Views
I can certainly see your vitrol. Now I'm a bit confused though. - 23/02/2010 08:54:54 PM 587 Views
Re: I can certainly see your vitrol. Now I'm a bit confused though. - 23/02/2010 09:08:33 PM 995 Views
your view point is idealistic, I think - 23/02/2010 09:24:08 PM 858 Views
I guess one would have to see the documentary to really judge. - 23/02/2010 08:58:47 PM 687 Views
The language really isn't the problem in France. - 23/02/2010 08:15:52 PM 711 Views
I will conceed that point - 23/02/2010 08:53:26 PM 685 Views
Oh yeah, definitely, re: your point about Americans *NM* - 23/02/2010 09:00:20 PM 287 Views
Our differing opinion does not make us wrong. or that you are. - 23/02/2010 09:07:38 PM 739 Views
I'm not dismissing the problem entirely. - 23/02/2010 09:03:50 PM 693 Views
Well. I wasn't necessarily specifying France. *NM* - 23/02/2010 09:48:44 PM 268 Views
But a lot of them were already in a part of France or had been born in a part of France - 23/02/2010 05:30:24 PM 595 Views
*gasp* There are no French Muslims!! - 23/02/2010 05:36:38 PM 706 Views
Or! - 24/02/2010 10:04:44 AM 785 Views
It's funny because it's true - Algeria was administratively a part of France, iirc. *NM* - 23/02/2010 07:51:17 PM 239 Views
It does make the situation more complicated - 24/02/2010 10:30:28 AM 614 Views
Why should you have to completely change who you are? - 23/02/2010 05:35:51 PM 557 Views
Yes, of course - 23/02/2010 05:48:10 PM 547 Views
Yes, but the difference was I knew it was hyperbole - 23/02/2010 07:01:49 PM 545 Views
Re: Yes, but the difference was I knew it was hyperbole - 23/02/2010 07:38:54 PM 687 Views
So they should be treated as less because they're immigrants? - 23/02/2010 07:45:16 PM 628 Views
They're not Turks, they're mostly from France's old colonies. - 23/02/2010 08:10:25 PM 553 Views
The French didn't seem to feel the need to go native when they were in Middle Eastern countries - 23/02/2010 05:55:28 PM 785 Views
What are you refering to? - 23/02/2010 06:00:45 PM 568 Views
Brush up on your history then - 23/02/2010 06:25:53 PM 609 Views
Thank you - 23/02/2010 06:34:19 PM 550 Views
I would think that simply having McDonalds there is a greater threat to French cultrue - 23/02/2010 06:52:34 PM 685 Views
This. well stated. *NM* - 23/02/2010 07:03:47 PM 270 Views
Why thank you *NM* - 23/02/2010 11:49:22 PM 269 Views
Many? - 23/02/2010 07:40:06 AM 606 Views
sorry I thought it was a restaurant - 23/02/2010 04:41:39 AM 556 Views

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