I think it's safe to say teaching your kids to be little sociopaths qualifies as harm.
Joel Send a noteboard - 03/03/2010 09:17:48 PM
Since I still haven't been to bed after work and still owe you and Isaac a response apiece elsewhere I'll limit myself to saying that, and that I agree with Celia and Glieseian (or random thoughts as it is now, but I still think of people by their wotmania names, which I'm glad to see you're still using; makes things easier for my aging addled brain.
) Compulsory education is a reasonable civic good, I'm inclined to agree, but there's nothing that says it has to be a compulsory STATE education. Home schooling doesn't allow you to just rubber stamp your illiterate 3 year old "HS graduate" after all; there are standards and curricula to satisfy (which, ironically, opens up a whole separate can of worms, because I'm also inclined to say a number of things these parents probably don't want their kids taught SHOULD be required curricula from SOME source. )
But by and large, I agree with rt and with Jeo by implication: Even the most ardent supporters of "the nanny state" don't take it literally; parents raise kids, not the Ayn Rand School for Free Thinkers Thinking As We Think Free. If the parents are meeting the kids educational needs there's no reason for the state to force its way in there or anywhere else unless there's real reason to think the kids are being harmed. Judging by the statistics on things like placement testing, the National Spelling Bee and the ever popular Jeopardy Teen Tournament it seems a better argument could be made for the position taken by several people in this thread: That public rather than home "education" does American kids the greater disservice.
OK, I said more than I meant, and I'm far from done (since we finally have a thread that looks like a thread should look, on a subject worth reasoned and civil debate between broad perspectives; has Cannoli become the wotmaniaest RAFOlk...?) but I need to sleep before I can discuss it intelligently.
Sorry I've not been by Facebook recently, but hope you and the family are well; one of these days we need to swap emails or something (or Skype, delicious wonderful Skype that lets me actually TALK to people in other countries for free.
)
) Compulsory education is a reasonable civic good, I'm inclined to agree, but there's nothing that says it has to be a compulsory STATE education. Home schooling doesn't allow you to just rubber stamp your illiterate 3 year old "HS graduate" after all; there are standards and curricula to satisfy (which, ironically, opens up a whole separate can of worms, because I'm also inclined to say a number of things these parents probably don't want their kids taught SHOULD be required curricula from SOME source. )But by and large, I agree with rt and with Jeo by implication: Even the most ardent supporters of "the nanny state" don't take it literally; parents raise kids, not the Ayn Rand School for Free Thinkers Thinking As We Think Free. If the parents are meeting the kids educational needs there's no reason for the state to force its way in there or anywhere else unless there's real reason to think the kids are being harmed. Judging by the statistics on things like placement testing, the National Spelling Bee and the ever popular Jeopardy Teen Tournament it seems a better argument could be made for the position taken by several people in this thread: That public rather than home "education" does American kids the greater disservice.
OK, I said more than I meant, and I'm far from done (since we finally have a thread that looks like a thread should look, on a subject worth reasoned and civil debate between broad perspectives; has Cannoli become the wotmaniaest RAFOlk...?) but I need to sleep before I can discuss it intelligently.
Sorry I've not been by Facebook recently, but hope you and the family are well; one of these days we need to swap emails or something (or Skype, delicious wonderful Skype that lets me actually TALK to people in other countries for free.
)
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!
LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.
Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Homeschooling: German Family Gets Political Asylum in U.S.
- 02/03/2010 10:30:01 PM
1588 Views
Looks like a win-win situation to me.
- 02/03/2010 11:01:22 PM
837 Views
Germany does have a history of getting rid of people it doesn't like *NM*
- 03/03/2010 02:08:37 PM
509 Views
Yawn. At least beckstcw was joking when he invoked Godwin's law below. I hope. *NM*
- 03/03/2010 02:10:18 PM
424 Views
That is a load of crap
- 03/03/2010 02:53:02 PM
506 Views
uhm, how would Germany be offending the US?
- 03/03/2010 02:56:52 PM
473 Views
Um.
- 03/03/2010 02:57:53 PM
354 Views
But our religious beliefs and belief in allowing religious freedom is fair game?
- 03/03/2010 03:09:48 PM
359 Views
Yes?
- 03/03/2010 03:40:30 PM
335 Views
If you made fun of the Native Americans I would be offended
- 03/03/2010 03:46:05 PM
588 Views
It's actually quite the opposite.
- 03/03/2010 03:57:19 PM
559 Views
and I would say they trying to fix intolerance with more intolerance
- 03/03/2010 04:13:49 PM
347 Views
That was probably the stupidest thing I ever saw you write
- 03/03/2010 03:28:39 PM
515 Views
You were the one who said good riddance
- 03/03/2010 03:43:24 PM
369 Views
It's the usual story of American ideology and European pragmatism.
- 03/03/2010 03:52:51 PM
527 Views
This is getting a bit off the discussion. Please keep it civil, everyone. *NM*
- 03/03/2010 06:55:11 PM
447 Views
Re: Homeschooling: German Family Gets Political Asylum in U.S.
- 03/03/2010 01:09:23 AM
986 Views
The socialization thing is mostly garbage
- 03/03/2010 02:32:19 AM
857 Views
Yep, exactly.
- 03/03/2010 02:41:14 AM
643 Views
Re: Yep, exactly.
- 03/03/2010 03:12:48 AM
627 Views
*shrugs* I said it was anecdotal. I have no hard figures, only experiences.
- 03/03/2010 03:28:29 AM
615 Views
The operative word IS mostly
- 03/03/2010 04:33:20 AM
815 Views
'Mostly' is all that matters
- 03/03/2010 05:46:01 AM
857 Views
Uhm, socialization is incredibly important.
- 03/03/2010 06:03:30 AM
825 Views
Yes, but you don't need to be taught to do it
- 03/03/2010 06:47:06 AM
789 Views
cats aren't pack or herd animals
- 03/03/2010 06:53:02 AM
781 Views
- 03/03/2010 06:53:02 AM
781 Views
Something of an inside joke, sorry
- 03/03/2010 07:41:50 AM
801 Views
us closely associated with schools are sensitive on the issue too
- 03/03/2010 01:05:27 PM
625 Views
- 03/03/2010 01:05:27 PM
625 Views
Re: us closely associated with schools are sensitive on the issue too
- 03/03/2010 10:19:21 PM
692 Views
- 03/03/2010 10:19:21 PM
692 Views
I would agree that households with two working parnets shouldn't home school *NM*
- 03/03/2010 03:22:51 PM
431 Views
to jump on the "I was homeschooled and I have social skills" bandwagon...
- 03/03/2010 06:27:05 AM
1202 Views
I was homeschooled through grade 12, and my mom has done pro bono legal work for HSLDA.
- 03/03/2010 02:20:38 AM
779 Views
I agree that it can be a very good option for some families
- 03/03/2010 04:42:21 AM
896 Views
Re: I agree that it can be a very good option for some families
- 03/03/2010 05:16:17 AM
738 Views
It depends on the public school.
- 03/03/2010 05:23:09 AM
781 Views
Re: It depends on the public school.
- 03/03/2010 05:45:07 AM
789 Views
"done right" is not always the case
- 03/03/2010 05:58:26 AM
599 Views
Re: "done right" is not always the case
- 03/03/2010 06:14:43 AM
932 Views
Re: "done right" is not always the case
- 03/03/2010 06:31:04 AM
843 Views
Well let's talk stats then.
- 03/03/2010 06:55:14 AM
789 Views
please do not get me started on statistis.
- 03/03/2010 07:11:19 AM
706 Views
Your comments on public school educations have rather limited relevance to other countries, though.
- 03/03/2010 09:53:30 AM
853 Views
While I support homeschooling, this is ridiculous.
- 03/03/2010 04:48:40 AM
895 Views
Meh.
- 03/03/2010 05:20:50 AM
830 Views
one year in a public school
- 03/03/2010 05:32:13 AM
878 Views
Re: one year in a public school
- 03/03/2010 05:58:48 AM
643 Views
No, I think i will nitpick.
- 03/03/2010 06:11:44 AM
792 Views
This is getting off track and wasting time.
- 03/03/2010 06:26:36 AM
811 Views
I'm not even certain it's 100% legal.
- 03/03/2010 06:34:44 AM
596 Views
Yes, but we can't argue abuse of law.
- 03/03/2010 06:51:23 AM
715 Views
I only used Mexicans because I'm from Arizona
- 03/03/2010 07:04:29 AM
838 Views
- 03/03/2010 07:04:29 AM
838 Views
I think I have the gist of it,
- 03/03/2010 07:17:40 AM
727 Views
we haven't heard anything about their beliefs for me to think they're stupid.
- 03/03/2010 02:54:25 PM
827 Views
According to the Süddeutsche Zeitung...
- 03/03/2010 03:38:13 PM
739 Views
Say what?
- 03/03/2010 09:38:40 AM
689 Views
Being able raise your kids by your beliefs is a frivolous matter?
- 03/03/2010 03:21:23 PM
628 Views
Germany is not saying "you can't raise your kids by your beliefs"
- 03/03/2010 03:31:01 PM
740 Views
It's not a recent law, and supposedly other German families have moved to France and the UK.
- 03/03/2010 03:45:56 PM
834 Views
I think that would fly in very face of political assylum
- 03/03/2010 04:12:48 PM
785 Views
Yes, but they did not need political asylum.
- 03/03/2010 04:28:16 PM
795 Views
how is that different then other political refuges we allow in?
- 03/03/2010 04:55:14 PM
719 Views
I believe Legolas linked an article
- 03/03/2010 04:57:09 PM
702 Views
I never saw the link
- 03/03/2010 05:08:21 PM
603 Views
I'm not sure if they offered "formal" assurances or some such
- 03/03/2010 05:21:54 PM
534 Views
that was a mayor, I doubt he would have the final word on the issue
- 03/03/2010 05:46:22 PM
589 Views
You don't have a law about removing children from parental custody? At all?
- 03/03/2010 09:43:15 PM
741 Views
They can take your kids from for not sending them to school but not for home schooling them
- 03/03/2010 10:35:48 PM
745 Views
Compared to not being able to feed your kids, yes, it is.
- 03/03/2010 03:42:58 PM
617 Views
yes but we don't grant political assylum for being hungry
- 03/03/2010 04:34:23 PM
701 Views
no we don't.
- 03/03/2010 04:50:31 PM
571 Views
Do you have a better system?
- 03/03/2010 05:05:42 PM
869 Views
Immigration processes could certainly use some reform
- 03/03/2010 05:32:22 PM
669 Views
The system sucks, big government typically does not function well
- 03/03/2010 05:48:25 PM
614 Views
Oh, and did you miss the part where the federal government is appealing the decision? *NM*
- 03/03/2010 09:40:42 AM
433 Views
I would consider the threat of losing my children because of my beliefs to be a real threat *NM*
- 03/03/2010 02:54:08 PM
472 Views
Doesn't matter why, but all parents should have the right to homeschool.....
- 03/03/2010 04:48:57 AM
654 Views
That whole thing is pretty silly
- 03/03/2010 12:18:45 PM
879 Views
Re: socialising.
- 03/03/2010 06:13:49 PM
840 Views
I am opposed to homeschooling but believe it should be a legal option.
- 03/03/2010 02:32:34 PM
807 Views
I think you make a good point here
- 03/03/2010 05:22:59 PM
824 Views
but...but...parents can't educate their children outside of school!!
- 03/03/2010 05:40:30 PM
754 Views
I don't agree with them I just support their right to be wrong
- 03/03/2010 06:04:11 PM
811 Views
The statistics are flawed, as I've noted above
- 03/03/2010 07:07:11 PM
664 Views
they tend to beat private schools as well would should flatten out the demographics
- 03/03/2010 07:53:38 PM
752 Views
Your views on this are not fact-driven
- 03/03/2010 09:13:07 PM
846 Views
No, what you're saying is that my answer isn't driven by STATISTICS.
- 03/03/2010 10:36:50 PM
777 Views
Granted, but there is no obvious source for bias
- 03/03/2010 10:57:19 PM
712 Views
You mean aside from the fact that you are already arguing about it?
- 04/03/2010 12:14:02 AM
600 Views
Yes, I mentioned this in my reply to Tom, see below...
- 04/03/2010 12:19:42 AM
740 Views
And the wikipedia article you pointed me to had a different study that contradicts your point.
- 03/03/2010 10:42:54 PM
729 Views
Religious or *moral* instruction
- 03/03/2010 10:49:48 PM
788 Views
I haven't really "met" you the way I meant it in that reply
- 03/03/2010 11:48:11 PM
597 Views
Granted but for our purposes I think people on this site would qualify
- 04/03/2010 12:05:03 AM
760 Views
Umm Massachusetts did have slavery in 1717
- 03/03/2010 02:55:25 PM
702 Views
His argument on the law of Germany is a bad one generally, though, not just for that reason.
- 03/03/2010 03:31:00 PM
620 Views
Wow....so this got the board going. A question for everyone...
- 03/03/2010 06:02:57 PM
890 Views
I think it is incumbent on the state to show that kids are being in some way harmed
- 03/03/2010 06:07:13 PM
824 Views
Interesting
- 03/03/2010 06:25:43 PM
914 Views
I never said there should be no limits on what parents should be able to do
- 03/03/2010 06:38:53 PM
860 Views
I think it's safe to say teaching your kids to be little sociopaths qualifies as harm.
- 03/03/2010 09:17:48 PM
636 Views
I think so too
- 03/03/2010 10:46:41 PM
866 Views
I think the problem there was it was seen as inherently political, that, and showing harm.
- 03/03/2010 11:44:21 PM
687 Views
Yes they do. Provided...
- 03/03/2010 07:04:46 PM
731 Views
There is a reason why education until 18 (or 16, depending) is not merely a right, but a duty.
- 03/03/2010 10:00:53 PM
803 Views
Hmmph. Inappropriate action on the part of the judge who allowed them to stay.
- 03/03/2010 06:22:08 PM
766 Views
You just skip the part where they have to show they are being persecuted
- 03/03/2010 06:54:20 PM
880 Views
As I said, most people would prefer to have their safety threatened to losing their kids. *NM*
- 06/03/2010 10:14:52 PM
504 Views
*walks in, looks around*
- 03/03/2010 07:52:09 PM
837 Views
Interesting
- 03/03/2010 11:02:27 PM
829 Views
