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Re: That's silly though Burr Send a noteboard - 06/03/2010 04:30:20 AM
If innocence were the appropriate metric, then all prison sentences would be life sentences.

Absolutely not! Where do you get this silliness?


From where you said, "Recidivism isn't innocence and this is still a waste of time argument." I took it that you were saying that innocence, not recidivism, is the appropriate metric.

Hey, let's throw this guy out of the world for stealing a loaf of bread to feed his starving kids. Yeah that makes LOTS of sense.


It is ridiculous, I agree, but that is what follows when innocence is the basis for determining whether a prisoner may be released from prison. A man who was imprisoned for stealing a loaf of bread is not innocent, so he cannot be freed if innocence is the standard, so his sentence is a life sentence.

If we'd rather concern ourselves with reasonable measures, then it is far more relevant that a rehabilitated prisoner set free poses no more risk or harm to society than any other person.

That's kind of the definition of 'rehabilitated.' What's your point?


That "recidivism is not innocence" is a weak counter to my earlier point.

Hundreds of juvenile convictions by one corrupt judge were tossed out about a year ago, and the juveniles' records were expunged. <snip> Therefore, it was within the realm of plausibility for the situation to match my hypothetical one. Thus, it is not some kind of extreme even in the particular.

Ummm no. The people put in jail by a single judge still make up only a very small proportion of the sum of all prisoners. That doesn't fly.


It flies as an example of a species of problem to which we may apply the general principle derived from a good-faith answer to the OP's hypothetical situation. (What is good for the set is good for the subset.) Thereby, it flies as an example as to why the question is not silly.

The stats are modeled on past observations of appropriate samples of similar prisoners. That's why you don't know who; you only know the aggregate behavior that a reasonable person should expect.

But you don't. You can examine people who are going to be released, quiz them, look at their prison records, their past criminal records, all kinds of things.


That's how you find out about individuals, and they are getting better at it. But how you find out about groups is you look at how often people released get brought back in for a new offense in light of factors like kind of treatment, completion of treatment, etc. vs. control groups. In large enough numbers the aggregate behavior becomes predictable. You obviously wouldn't use this to the exclusion of more individual methods, but it provides a baseline. My question is not concerned with the individual variations, but with the baseline, which is why I phrased it in terms of "all" prisoners.

Your question is too much of the 'what do you do about the baby on the railroad tracks when all you can do is switch the train to hit a bunch of adults' sort. It's a fantasy question, like so many 'philosophy' questions it renders itself irrelevant simply by being so out there that, well, it's irrelevant to anything that would ever happen in the real world.


Here's why railroad/Sophie's Choice questions aren't very useful in moral philosophy. Using your example, the value of a baby and the value of an adult are necessary inputs to say whether you'd pull the switch. But they are also the true desired output. Nobody really cares whether the switch gets pulled, they only care what that says about the value of babies vs. adults. Asking a railroad question is an underwear-gnome strategy. Step one: frame as railroad question. Step two: ... Step three: profit! My question is not analogous to railroad questions in this sense.

Moreover, while it is hypothetical, it is not fantastical. It may not be practical to test one's hypothetical answer, but the possible answers are nonetheless falsifiable. (Some railroad questions may claim the same; but as I described, they are useless for an entirely different reason.)

Narrow your question down, then maybe we can get a real analysis, but fantasy questions that don't allow for realistic answers are nothing more than mental masturbation.


I don't think my question disallowed the realistic, good-faith answer, "I don't know."
||||||||||*MySmiley*
Only so evil.
This message last edited by Burr on 06/03/2010 at 04:32:36 AM
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