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The AKP is not anti-American. Legolas Send a noteboard - 18/03/2010 03:02:00 PM
My issue with Turkey is that we get to choose between ultranationalist butchers and anti-American shits. Both deny the Armenian genocide and actually seem to somehow blame the victims. It's horrible and unconscionable. I don't see either of these as a good alternative.

I disagree. The AKP is really quite pro-Western - its rivals, except the DTP and successors, are more anti-American than they are. Of course, Turkey being both a Muslim country and a strongly nationalistic one, there is a sizeable part of the population that is anti-American and I'm sure those are represented here and there among AKP politicians, but as a whole, the AKP has stuck to its policy of having good relationships with all foreign countries who want them. I haven't seen any significant anti-American rhetoric from the government, unless of course you mean some of the angry statements at the voting on this genocide resolution.

As for denying the Armenian genocide, yes, both do it, but it should be obvious that the AKP is the less fervent about it, and offers the best chances of eventually acknowleding it at some point - if the US and other countries would stop trying to force the issue and provoking angry reactions. And "blaming the victims" - it's simply a fact that the Armenian genocide, like most genocides, is morally a little more complicated than the Holocaust. The Osman Empire had some cause to be wary of the Armenians and to view them as a fifth column - but then part of the reason for that were the pogrom-like incidents that had happened against Armenians in the preceding decades. Obviously there's nothing that remotely begins to excuse the scale of the killings and the mass murders of entire villages that took place, but one can see why the Turks would not want to be shouldered with the full blame the way the Nazis were for the Holocaust, and the evidence that the genocide was planned and orchestrated intentionally, rather than a matter of things getting utterly out of hand, isn't too solid. The problem with accusations of genocide is that such a word tends to make people put the entirety of the blame on one party, when in many cases things are more complex than that, Rwanda is a similar case.
I also fail to see what Russia has to do with any of this. Russia has recognized the dark pages of its own past - President Medvedev recently made yet more statements about the brutal murders and Gulag system, and there are monuments in Russia erected to the memory of the victims of Stalinism. As in virtually any country, yes, there are people who deny the past or seek to whitewash it, but it is not a crime in Russia to "insult Russian-ness" or publish books that expose the full scope of the Terror, the brutalities of the Red Army in Russia's Civil War or nearly any other act of evil committed in Russia at any time.

I wasn't really comparing Turkey to Russia so much as your stance towards Turkey to some people's stances towards Russia. A lot of people on this site and elsewhere have a pronounced dislike for Russia and refuse to look at it in a more nuanced way that distinguishes between the various actors, takes gradual changes of policy into account and praises the good as well as criticizing the bad, which is an attitude you've rightly criticized. But your attitude towards Turkey (and other people's, like Joel) seems quite similar.
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Turkey threatens to expel 100,000 Armenians - 17/03/2010 05:10:26 PM 808 Views
Why not let sleeping dogs lie? - 17/03/2010 05:22:34 PM 332 Views
No - 17/03/2010 06:17:50 PM 327 Views
Everyone else knows what happened.... - 17/03/2010 06:35:37 PM 371 Views
Every nation has to come to grips with the "sins of its past". - 18/03/2010 01:30:56 AM 285 Views
Erdogan is the Middle East's Chavez. *NM* - 17/03/2010 06:38:00 PM 159 Views
I think Lieberman has the better claim there. *NM* - 18/03/2010 03:39:29 AM 131 Views
Hardly. Lieberman makes sense - 18/03/2010 05:34:43 PM 254 Views
I've read some articles saying otherwise. - 18/03/2010 05:49:52 PM 306 Views
Torpedoing Biden's mission ? What a sad joke. - 18/03/2010 06:22:37 PM 265 Views
Would you like to call it something else? - 18/03/2010 06:26:34 PM 309 Views
Because Obama was looking for a way to get offended - 18/03/2010 06:54:55 PM 452 Views
Your problem is that a "settlement freeze" doesn't impress anyone at all. - 18/03/2010 07:16:55 PM 269 Views
Maybe we should just ask the Palestinians if we can keep Tel Aviv ? - 18/03/2010 07:44:07 PM 242 Views
If you want anyone to be impressed, yes. - 18/03/2010 09:03:11 PM 233 Views
How is it too much when there is a freeze ? - 18/03/2010 09:22:03 PM 304 Views
You call this a freeze? - 18/03/2010 09:43:52 PM 340 Views
Not your sourness silly. Obama's - 18/03/2010 10:15:56 PM 276 Views
Ah. - 18/03/2010 10:22:58 PM 249 Views
And you know what really annoys me ? - 18/03/2010 10:53:13 PM 305 Views
How long are supposed to stop building for? - 18/03/2010 09:32:58 PM 255 Views
How about permanently? - 18/03/2010 09:50:46 PM 323 Views
I don't think i agree that the condidtions for peace or that well known - 19/03/2010 04:32:37 AM 222 Views
Major conditions - 19/03/2010 09:59:37 AM 286 Views
Re: Major conditions - 19/03/2010 01:26:54 PM 277 Views
Seriously, what conflict are you looking at? - 19/03/2010 01:56:24 PM 397 Views
Re: Seriously, what conflict are you looking at? - 19/03/2010 04:47:07 PM 278 Views
Ah, good point there... I was kinda thinking of the West. - 19/03/2010 08:31:11 PM 293 Views
well I wasn't talking about how anyone treated but who was making the decisions - 19/03/2010 09:24:47 PM 342 Views
That really isn't a very useful observation at this point, though. - 19/03/2010 09:32:30 PM 251 Views
Man, your analysis is weird - 20/03/2010 11:24:40 AM 544 Views
I'm a bit confused what you're saying exactly... - 20/03/2010 04:10:14 PM 288 Views
How so ? - 20/03/2010 11:04:30 PM 235 Views
It was over because Israel wanted it to be over. - 20/03/2010 11:24:33 PM 270 Views
Maybe. - 21/03/2010 12:23:58 AM 344 Views
Re: Major conditions - 19/03/2010 03:01:42 PM 387 Views
They don't exactly have much that they *can* give up. - 19/03/2010 10:46:35 AM 299 Views
I don't want them to give up anything more then the violience - 19/03/2010 01:55:51 PM 289 Views
That's simple enough: Israel is a first world state. - 19/03/2010 02:13:17 PM 248 Views
That is a little thin - 19/03/2010 03:27:10 PM 325 Views
Israel has been a democracy since its inception - 19/03/2010 04:01:30 PM 346 Views
Okay, two things first... - 19/03/2010 08:59:57 PM 347 Views
That's ridiculous. - 18/03/2010 06:53:40 PM 325 Views
Truly I cannot answer that. - 18/03/2010 07:00:58 PM 247 Views
It is pretty crude - 17/03/2010 11:15:28 PM 347 Views
This. Nicely put. *NM* - 18/03/2010 03:29:02 AM 130 Views
Why is recognizing a 100-year-old evil in his country's past "backing him into a corner"???? - 18/03/2010 11:41:05 AM 296 Views
The guy who has managed to face down one military coup from a sector that doesn't want it admitted? - 18/03/2010 12:39:46 PM 376 Views
Turkey's atrocities against the Kurds are what I referred to. - 18/03/2010 02:00:58 PM 292 Views
Ah, well that is a different matter - 18/03/2010 02:31:58 PM 348 Views
Why is it so hard for you people to see that the AKP are the "good guys" in Turkey? - 18/03/2010 01:44:13 PM 265 Views
There are no "good guys" in Turkey, at least not in the government. - 18/03/2010 01:57:44 PM 245 Views
Equating the two is ridiculous. - 18/03/2010 02:13:37 PM 377 Views
My issues are not with a lack of democracy and I don't equate the AKP and the military - 18/03/2010 02:35:00 PM 371 Views
The AKP is not anti-American. - 18/03/2010 03:02:00 PM 267 Views
Its better than the alternative - 18/03/2010 01:11:07 AM 403 Views
So they respond to claims of genocide with threats of ethnic cleansing? Terrible. Just terrible. - 18/03/2010 11:39:31 AM 282 Views
Nicely put *NM* - 18/03/2010 04:22:58 PM 133 Views
Money. - 18/03/2010 05:47:27 PM 236 Views
Unlikely. - 18/03/2010 08:51:28 PM 260 Views
I agree. What they are doing now only makes things worse for them - 18/03/2010 08:48:25 PM 221 Views

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