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Ben was asleep at the switch, clearly. Joel Send a noteboard - 29/03/2010 02:48:46 PM
So in other words you were at wotmania far longer than I. I'm sorry you missed the CMB when it was still an awesome place. For all that CERTAIN PEOPLE think I get all my news from DailyKos (I think I've been there MAYBE a half dozen times in as many years) my main news outlet used to be the wotmania CMB, because I knew that ANY news story would show up there hours, sometimes days, before it appeared anywhere else, and the breadth, depth and civility of discussion would outstrip all or most other sources. I'm actually at something of a loss these days, because there are few other places I know to get timely news accounts that don't favor one perspective over others, when they don't just gloss over the issue in a blurb.

I have to say, I think you have a bit rose-coloured glasses here. Wotmania being better than most of the rest of the net is a fact, but regrettably that's not saying much. There's always been drama and harsh words. The only real difference is that there were more people and so political posts weren't quite as repetitive with the same people clashing in almost every thread - and people weren't quite as clique-ish about the politics as a result. Plus, there was the incomparable aerocontrols and his talent for annihilating shoddy arguments from any side without getting harsh or insulting about it. Having "critiques" from him on my posts certainly helped me.

... okay, maybe I do agree with you after all, then. But it did go into shouting matches at times, trust me.

Oh, I know; I attended my share, though back then I like to think I didn't participate in the shouting as often. Maybe I just had the good fortune to arrive after the worst had subsided, but while it did happen, MOST trolls USUALLY seemed to be dismissively ignored. The vitriol dripping insults were something you skimmed past on your way to worthwhile discussions, and the latter predominated even though the former made their inevitable appearance in threads on anything remotely controversial.
TX does at least have open primaries, but at the core I think people should be able to vote in all primaries for the same reason I'm offended by comments on "Real America. " If any party seeks to represent the nation, or claims to, then the whole nation should have a say in its leadership, and we'd probably have less extremist nominees were that the case. The spectacle that, IMHO, doomed McCain by forcing him to shed his moderate image to win a primary with the base then try to shed a RIGHT WING image to win the general election is one very familiar to Democrats. For decades national candidates couldn't get nominated without appeals to most far left elements of the base, which then came back to haunt them during the general campaign. Letting everyone vote in every primary would go along way toward ending the factionalism Washington rightly rejected as harmful to the nation.

I agree with this, but only as an inferior alternative for tackling the problem at the base and getting rid of the 100% FPTP system Congress now has - like Isaac suggests. Since that's likely never going to happen, the inferior alternative is probably best.

That carries its own set of difficulties, most notably divorcing representatives from any sub-national core constituency they REPRESENT. Pork is a very real abuse in need of reform, but a lot of very beneficial programs wouldn't exist without the votes of Congressmen who knew the vast majority of people who voted for them would benefit. I've heard it alleged, for example, the entire state of TX only has one natural lake; we have many artificial ones thinks to WPA hydroelectric programs supported by TX Congressman like Lyndon Johnson. Maybe LBJ is a good New Dealer soldier without that, but it certainly didn't hurt, and I can't help wondering how much of the New Deal would've become reality if individual Congressmen weren't offered individual programs they knew would help hundreds of thousands back home. Not to mention the time honored US principle of "writing your Congressman" goes out the window if he's not really YOUR Congressman.

I say all of that because the chief alternative to FPtP seems to be proportional representation, and while it has a lot of things going for it, it has some very real deficiencies that aren't present in our system. There are pros and cons to both the American and European models, and I can't say either is "better" but I do think both could benefit from borrowing from each other (instant runoffs would vastly and immediately improve our system, IMHO, allowing viable third parties without wasted votes. )
Healthcare needs to be split into separate bills, but tort reform needs to be included because that's how massive bills enact things that can't stand on their own merit? Surely if we can justify tort reform as part of one massive healthcare bill, we can justify HEALTHCARES inclusion on the same basis. Personally, I'm a little sick of the political calculus in which BOTH sides are evaluating healthcare legislation solely in terms of how it will impact the midterms. LBJ took his lumps on Medicare and the Civil Rights Act despite having to run a re-election campaign along the way, because they were the right thing to do. But Obama is no LBJ or FDR, as becomes more apparent daily.

It's very odd with Obama. Like Isaac says, you have to wonder who's advising him - I don't even think his unfulfilled promises during the election campaign were insincere at the time he made them, yet you really can't say he looks like he's trying very hard to fulfill them.

Congress is less puzzling - there it's just a matter of perverse incentives that need to be dealt with one way or another if government in the US is to improve substantially (can you tell I'm an economist? ).

Obama was an unknown quantity and that was part of his appeal, but that means die hard liberals who voted for liberal rhetoric couldn't be certain they weren't getting a pragmatic moderate. What happened to Obama, IMHO, is that campaigning as an outside the Beltway politician didn't stop him being a politician. That said, I think Rahm and Axelrod are giving him horrible advice, because the best course for campaigning is seldom the best course for governing. The proof is in the pudding, but this increasingly tastes rather sour.

As to Congress, a lot of those incentives are there for reasons of accountability and representation. It's a national legislature composed of local representatives; the need for an elected official to represent the country is why we have a President, but the need for national interests not to trample local ones is why we have a Congress. With a few exceptions were wise and well educated men, and tampering with their handiwork is something I think should be carefully considered, deliberately evaluated and (usually) still not done.
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This message last edited by Joel on 29/03/2010 at 02:52:08 PM
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Palin reads Cheat Notes. - 08/02/2010 12:43:02 AM 1423 Views
Is it really worse than reading answers on a teleprompter? sorry, I see no big deal here. *NM* - 08/02/2010 01:02:49 AM 251 Views
yes yes it is. a teleprompter is subtle - 08/02/2010 01:22:17 AM 592 Views
a teleprompter is not subtle - 08/02/2010 02:25:46 PM 521 Views
staring openly and blatantly at your hand is? *NM* - 08/02/2010 03:09:25 PM 321 Views
I think if anyone else had done the dame thing we wouldn't even had heard about - 08/02/2010 06:13:44 PM 522 Views
you're right, we probably would not have heard about it - 08/02/2010 07:56:09 PM 561 Views
Yes for what the notes were - 08/02/2010 12:44:35 PM 556 Views
no biggie *NM* - 08/02/2010 02:00:12 AM 271 Views
Isn't her 15 minutes over yet? *NM* - 08/02/2010 02:45:58 AM 357 Views
This only obscures the rational reasons for duly decrying her political popularity. Moooooooo. *NM* - 08/02/2010 03:19:45 AM 325 Views
I disagree, I think it underscores it. - 08/02/2010 03:39:57 AM 523 Views
Or they might believe that a far left liberal - 08/02/2010 04:16:51 AM 541 Views
Calling someone who needs a cheat sheet for their talking points stupid isn't an ad hominem, IMHO. - 08/02/2010 12:13:36 PM 535 Views
soory but your wrong, again - 08/02/2010 02:23:31 PM 495 Views
You shouldn't need reminders of your major themes after two years pushing them. - 08/02/2010 02:55:22 PM 527 Views
That's a bit silly - 08/02/2010 08:40:25 PM 689 Views
I'm perfectly happy to discuss her positions; I just think Huckabee does a better job of it. - 09/02/2010 10:26:54 AM 708 Views
Well, let's discuss some of these points - 09/02/2010 07:13:33 PM 714 Views
Re: Well, let's discuss some of these points - 10/02/2010 09:15:04 AM 746 Views
Re: Well, let's discuss some of these points - 10/02/2010 06:49:51 PM 813 Views
Ironically, Palin seems to agree this is different than using a teleprompter for a speech. - 11/02/2010 09:05:19 AM 708 Views
Again, two seperate things - 11/02/2010 09:51:15 PM 524 Views
Agreed, but Palin and other Republicans, not I, drew the comparison. - 15/02/2010 01:02:25 PM 672 Views
Just to get the obligatory Feinstein comment out of the way... - 15/02/2010 11:43:42 PM 734 Views
Hadn't heard, actually. - 19/02/2010 06:58:50 AM 649 Views
Re: Hadn't heard, actually. - 19/02/2010 08:32:11 AM 647 Views
Ah. - 23/02/2010 09:55:45 PM 724 Views
Re: Ah. - 24/02/2010 01:32:34 AM 671 Views
Yeah, I think we've reached an understanding if not agreement. - 01/03/2010 03:51:49 AM 665 Views
Re: Yeah, I think we've reached an understanding if not agreement. - 01/03/2010 11:46:24 PM 880 Views
Re: Yeah, I think we've reached an understanding if not agreement. - 05/03/2010 12:11:48 AM 754 Views
Random Title - 05/03/2010 02:49:59 AM 681 Views
Re: Random Title - 15/03/2010 05:37:22 AM 598 Views
Re: Random Title - 15/03/2010 09:17:53 PM 912 Views
Re: Random Rejoinder - 29/03/2010 03:45:08 PM 635 Views
Re: Random Rejoinder - 30/03/2010 12:34:23 AM 1282 Views
Oh dear, who ever let you two get into a subthread together? - 15/03/2010 10:31:24 PM 743 Views
Ben was asleep at the switch, clearly. - 29/03/2010 02:48:46 PM 680 Views
oh yes, and the right never uses ad hominem - 08/02/2010 03:56:42 PM 490 Views
This is petty and also rather ignorant - 08/02/2010 03:59:40 AM 687 Views
There had to be better ways, though - 08/02/2010 08:36:50 AM 443 Views
so you're saying you're as dumb as sarah palin? - 08/02/2010 10:55:00 AM 501 Views
Basically yes - 08/02/2010 06:57:16 PM 557 Views
a couple of points... - 09/02/2010 01:53:29 AM 522 Views
Let me get this straight. - 08/02/2010 03:59:40 AM 600 Views
Okay, folks, it's not that she had a cheat sheet. - 08/02/2010 04:39:06 AM 557 Views
Style is EVERYTHING, dammit! *NM* - 08/02/2010 05:34:14 AM 283 Views
As Cheat Sheet was raised as an objection, so it clearly was - 08/02/2010 06:16:57 AM 660 Views
It's completely unprofessional - 08/02/2010 08:27:47 AM 520 Views
why? - 08/02/2010 02:29:44 PM 544 Views
well it's all she's got going for her. *NM* - 08/02/2010 03:10:37 PM 233 Views
You know that's a good question - 08/02/2010 05:19:10 PM 506 Views
maybe you are just projecting - 08/02/2010 06:15:57 PM 510 Views
well what is the association we have with notes on hands? - 08/02/2010 07:58:41 PM 536 Views
or people on the far left are being grossly disingenuous - 08/02/2010 08:18:06 PM 649 Views
dude, only posted it because it was funny - 08/02/2010 08:43:55 PM 505 Views
I agree on your title - 09/02/2010 11:30:11 AM 572 Views
Who cares? She's hot. *NM* - 08/02/2010 03:06:58 PM 246 Views
I agree with your first sentence. *NM* - 08/02/2010 03:07:31 PM 346 Views
I also totally agree with that first sentence. *NM* - 08/02/2010 03:48:24 PM 273 Views
Much ado about nothing. She was just making sure she didn't forget anything. - 09/02/2010 02:00:56 AM 487 Views
No, humble would have been note cards. *NM* - 09/02/2010 05:55:27 AM 251 Views
Nah, note cards can be dropped or lost. - 09/02/2010 03:03:25 PM 506 Views
She's such a retard. *NM* - 09/02/2010 02:46:51 AM 274 Views
Maybe - 09/02/2010 09:29:45 AM 544 Views
No offense, girlie. - 09/02/2010 11:36:55 AM 649 Views
She should have left herself a note... - 09/02/2010 11:04:34 PM 513 Views

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