Mass Effect 1 vs 2: RPG-shooter vs Shooter-rpg (This is for you, Cymbaline!) (No spoilers)
lord-of-shadow Send a noteboard - 02/02/2010 11:28:24 PM
So there is no question about it: ME2 is less of an RPG, and more or an fps, than ME1 ever was. The overwhelming response to the gameplay changes seem to be positive, but I know a couple people who view it as a downgrade. Cymbaline, if my memory serves, doesn't even plan on playing the second one because of the increased emphasis on the FPS side.
I've been thinking about it a bit over the last few days. I myself find the combat in 2 much more satisfying, but I do see how an RPG purist like Cymbaline might find it to be a downgrade. With a couple minutes of brainstorming, here's a list of reasons why someone would like the RPG genre. Not all RPGs have all of these qualities, of course:
1. They are historically more focused on narrative.
2. They tend to have more fully realized worlds (hand in hand with the narrative)
3. There is a clear character progression, generally represented by numbers, unlocked skills, etc. The end result is that an end-game character is far more powerful than a beginning one.
4. This character progression features meaningful choices; which stats to upgrade, which skills to unlock, etc.
5. An RPG fight is not usually action-oriented; you don't win because of your reflexes, you win because of well-thought out tactical choices.
6. If you're stumped in a battle, it's generally possible to place time and effort into sidequests or some form of grinding to improve your character's stats and defeat the battle even without the best skills.
7. The underlying game system - all the numbers, stats, their interactions, etc. - tend to be more transparent, and thus more accessible to the player.
8. The underlying game system is complex, and offers a number of ways for it to be taken advantage of, if the player is willing to put effort into it.
I'm sure I could come up with more, but this'll do. Out of this list, Mass Effect 2 preserved or improved most of those qualities, and the ones that I derive the most enjoyment from: character progression, narrative focus, detailed world, ability to sidequest to improve your character(s). 7 is arguable; the underlying game system is less accessible than in 1, but still there.
8, too, I'm not sure about. It seems less complex than it's predecessor at first, but I fairly quickly realized that that wasn't the case. They got rid of all the equipment and inventory wrangling, but it did not sacrifice the ability to make strategic choices or customize in the process. They seemingly reduced the number of available skills, but you unlock quite a few as the game progresses. And they INCREASED the differences between the classes, some of which play very tactically (infiltrator, etc.).
The only places it really "fails", or deviates from a strength of the RPG genre, is that the battles are fast-paced, and they can be decided by physical skill rather than pure decision-making. But this is deceptive; even though it is more of a shooter now, it is still not a shooter. The battles are fairly slow-paced compared to any shooter I've played this side of America's Army, and I don't think the pacing is any different from the first game.
Ultimately, I think that you or anyone else who is upset about the perceived move away from RPG towards shooter should give it a shot first, Cymbaline. And every time that you hear about a change that makes it seem like less of an RPG, also remember that the other RPG aspects are, for the most part, even better than the previous game.
Oh yeah, if you read my other post you know that I talked to the producer for a little while. One of the questions I asked him was if he had an answer for some of my friends who were leery of the game because of the shift towards shooter. He advised me that "they" (and I was thinking of you, Cymbaline) should avoid the run-and-gun classes, like the soldier, and try the others, like the infiltrator, biotic, etc. They tend to be less action and less FPS, and play more similarly to a traditional RPG. Straight from the horses' mouth, so take it with a grain of salt, but hey.
I've been thinking about it a bit over the last few days. I myself find the combat in 2 much more satisfying, but I do see how an RPG purist like Cymbaline might find it to be a downgrade. With a couple minutes of brainstorming, here's a list of reasons why someone would like the RPG genre. Not all RPGs have all of these qualities, of course:
1. They are historically more focused on narrative.
2. They tend to have more fully realized worlds (hand in hand with the narrative)
3. There is a clear character progression, generally represented by numbers, unlocked skills, etc. The end result is that an end-game character is far more powerful than a beginning one.
4. This character progression features meaningful choices; which stats to upgrade, which skills to unlock, etc.
5. An RPG fight is not usually action-oriented; you don't win because of your reflexes, you win because of well-thought out tactical choices.
6. If you're stumped in a battle, it's generally possible to place time and effort into sidequests or some form of grinding to improve your character's stats and defeat the battle even without the best skills.
7. The underlying game system - all the numbers, stats, their interactions, etc. - tend to be more transparent, and thus more accessible to the player.
8. The underlying game system is complex, and offers a number of ways for it to be taken advantage of, if the player is willing to put effort into it.
I'm sure I could come up with more, but this'll do. Out of this list, Mass Effect 2 preserved or improved most of those qualities, and the ones that I derive the most enjoyment from: character progression, narrative focus, detailed world, ability to sidequest to improve your character(s). 7 is arguable; the underlying game system is less accessible than in 1, but still there.
8, too, I'm not sure about. It seems less complex than it's predecessor at first, but I fairly quickly realized that that wasn't the case. They got rid of all the equipment and inventory wrangling, but it did not sacrifice the ability to make strategic choices or customize in the process. They seemingly reduced the number of available skills, but you unlock quite a few as the game progresses. And they INCREASED the differences between the classes, some of which play very tactically (infiltrator, etc.).
The only places it really "fails", or deviates from a strength of the RPG genre, is that the battles are fast-paced, and they can be decided by physical skill rather than pure decision-making. But this is deceptive; even though it is more of a shooter now, it is still not a shooter. The battles are fairly slow-paced compared to any shooter I've played this side of America's Army, and I don't think the pacing is any different from the first game.
Ultimately, I think that you or anyone else who is upset about the perceived move away from RPG towards shooter should give it a shot first, Cymbaline. And every time that you hear about a change that makes it seem like less of an RPG, also remember that the other RPG aspects are, for the most part, even better than the previous game.
Oh yeah, if you read my other post you know that I talked to the producer for a little while. One of the questions I asked him was if he had an answer for some of my friends who were leery of the game because of the shift towards shooter. He advised me that "they" (and I was thinking of you, Cymbaline) should avoid the run-and-gun classes, like the soldier, and try the others, like the infiltrator, biotic, etc. They tend to be less action and less FPS, and play more similarly to a traditional RPG. Straight from the horses' mouth, so take it with a grain of salt, but hey.
This message last edited by lord-of-shadow on 02/02/2010 at 11:33:00 PM
Why not? Let's have a Mass Effect thread.
- 02/02/2010 05:02:32 PM
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Character discussion: Mordin Solus
- 02/02/2010 06:28:41 PM
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Mordin Solus is great
- 02/02/2010 08:21:26 PM
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Actually, that's what happened to me too.
- 02/02/2010 08:33:22 PM
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The Illusive man
- 02/02/2010 08:34:09 PM
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I didn't even realize that's who he was.
- 02/02/2010 08:44:07 PM
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- 02/02/2010 08:44:07 PM
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"I'm having trouble hearing you. I'm getting a lot of bullshit on this line." *NM*
- 02/02/2010 09:34:53 PM
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Who is sharing your bed?
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Tali for my male Shepherd
- 04/02/2010 03:52:03 PM
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Does she take the helmet off? *NM*
- 04/02/2010 07:57:18 PM
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I went simple - Miranda.
- 07/02/2010 06:32:25 AM
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Which reminds me that I always wondered...
- 07/02/2010 11:54:14 AM
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You probably wouldn't be able to woo anyone by being a total dick. *NM*
- 07/02/2010 03:32:41 PM
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I was lucky enough to meet the game's producer... (No spoilers)
- 02/02/2010 10:58:59 PM
1936 Views
No spoilers here either, as per my rules.
Regarding the ammo:
- 03/02/2010 04:51:54 AM
1732 Views
Regarding the ammo:
- 03/02/2010 04:51:54 AM
1732 Views
I just want to be part of this....that said, Best Buy is no longer selling ME:1
- 02/02/2010 11:16:51 PM
1873 Views
Could well be.
- 03/02/2010 04:52:49 AM
1685 Views
Glad the PC version was $50, at the risk of sounding like a snob.
- 03/02/2010 04:01:52 PM
1662 Views
Mass Effect 1 vs 2: RPG-shooter vs Shooter-rpg (This is for you, Cymbaline!) (No spoilers)
- 02/02/2010 11:28:24 PM
1873 Views
The "Holy crap that was awesome" moments. SPOILERS
- 03/02/2010 11:27:55 PM
1829 Views
Re: The "Holy crap that was awesome" moments. SPOILERS
- 04/02/2010 04:59:54 AM
1753 Views
Re: The "Holy crap that was awesome" moments. SPOILERS
- 04/02/2010 06:16:29 AM
1858 Views
Well. . .somewhat, I guess.
- 04/02/2010 06:43:02 AM
1914 Views
Re: Well. . .somewhat, I guess.
- 04/02/2010 03:32:26 PM
1825 Views
You know what? I'll actually buy that. I appreciate the explanation.
- 04/02/2010 06:30:37 PM
1622 Views
A couple of more things......
- 16/02/2010 12:41:19 AM
1910 Views
Game was too easy, primary plotline too short
- 04/02/2010 09:03:52 PM
1772 Views
Nice.
I'm playing through on Insanity now, and I think it's a good challenge.
- 05/02/2010 02:17:02 AM
1689 Views
I'm playing through on Insanity now, and I think it's a good challenge.
- 05/02/2010 02:17:02 AM
1689 Views
Whats your character build?
- 05/02/2010 02:45:31 PM
1944 Views
Ok, so male or female Shepherd?
- 05/02/2010 01:50:23 AM
1713 Views
Hm. This brings up a thought.
- 05/02/2010 01:52:37 AM
1647 Views
Male for my first playthrough, female for my second.
- 05/02/2010 02:28:24 AM
1815 Views
Male so far. I plan on playing the female Shepard next playthrough. *NM*
- 05/02/2010 03:25:00 AM
986 Views
Your Teams, and Your Deaths.
- 07/02/2010 06:30:25 AM
1603 Views
Re: Your Teams, and Your Deaths.
- 07/02/2010 09:07:17 AM
1839 Views
Do you know...
- 07/02/2010 03:46:59 PM
1653 Views
Re: Do you know...
- 07/02/2010 04:31:29 PM
1734 Views
Awesome. Thanks! *NM*
- 07/02/2010 04:40:59 PM
934 Views
Yeah, that's what I did.
- 07/02/2010 06:37:50 PM
1580 Views
Hmmm...
- 09/02/2010 03:48:48 PM
1624 Views
Strange.
- 09/02/2010 04:19:04 PM
1735 Views
me too
- 13/02/2010 03:01:05 PM
1730 Views
Did you do Legion's loyalty mission?
- 15/02/2010 05:52:36 AM
1810 Views
I did, for what it's worth.
- 15/02/2010 07:26:38 AM
1741 Views
Gah. Then I wonder if loyalty of the rest of the crew has something to do with it.
- 15/02/2010 04:20:13 PM
1689 Views
I have come across a big problem.
- 07/02/2010 06:53:36 PM
1741 Views
Want FREE Mass Effect 2 DLC? ME 2! (har, har) Bioware bonus goodies detailed inside.
- 09/02/2010 07:03:23 PM
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Now if only the DLC armors didn't have helmets.
- 09/02/2010 07:26:47 PM
1615 Views
Of course, the Shotgun is released AFTER I beat my Vanguard *sigh*
- 09/02/2010 11:31:13 PM
1702 Views
It's nice, but you don't miss much if you already had the Claymore shotty w/ an ammo upgrade. *NM*
- 10/02/2010 05:16:00 AM
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Anyone find anything interesting about Zaeed Massani?
- 11/02/2010 09:08:16 PM
1724 Views
I enjoy Zaeed.
- 11/02/2010 09:22:39 PM
1678 Views
I'm near your spot in the story and completely agree. One-sided conversations, but worthwhile. *NM*
- 11/02/2010 10:20:47 PM
823 Views
Yeah, I've listened to him alot but it's the same stuff every time.
- 12/02/2010 03:14:11 PM
1649 Views
Who, what, where?
*NM*
- 22/02/2010 08:18:31 PM
846 Views
*NM*
- 22/02/2010 08:18:31 PM
846 Views
If you bought a new copy of the game, it came with a code for the "Cerberus Network"
- 22/02/2010 08:22:18 PM
1632 Views
Is there a way to install the game on the Xbox, so you don't have to switch discs?
- 12/02/2010 01:39:07 AM
1661 Views
Good ones have two discs, of course.
DVDs can only hold so much. *NM*
- 12/02/2010 02:46:39 AM
835 Views
DVDs can only hold so much. *NM*
- 12/02/2010 02:46:39 AM
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This is the first I've ever seen. *NM*
- 12/02/2010 02:51:34 AM
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I've never understood why people are unhappy with the multiple discs.
- 12/02/2010 04:18:42 AM
1670 Views
So far, so great!
- 12/02/2010 08:35:00 AM
1671 Views
Re: So far, so great!
- 12/02/2010 02:31:43 PM
1767 Views
Re: So far, so great!
- 16/02/2010 10:17:12 PM
1712 Views
Nope, I was referring to honest-to-goodness cheating. lol
- 16/02/2010 11:03:53 PM
1758 Views
Ahh, I just figured you were on console as I am, so.....the grind will continue I guess
*NM*
- 17/02/2010 06:41:59 PM
922 Views
*NM*
- 17/02/2010 06:41:59 PM
922 Views
I love the detail put into this game.
- 12/02/2010 02:58:35 PM
1649 Views
"Our amino acids aren't even compatable so there's no risk if we go natural."
- 12/02/2010 03:15:50 PM
1687 Views
Re: "Our amino acids aren't even compatable so there's no risk if we go natural."
- 12/02/2010 07:16:21 PM
1620 Views
"Technically we don't even have sex drives... oh, she is rather flexible...." *NM*
- 12/02/2010 07:20:53 PM
865 Views
Female Turians....
- 12/02/2010 09:05:39 PM
1620 Views
Nope. Don't exist in-game.
- 14/02/2010 01:47:23 AM
1580 Views
I believe a krogan female is shown once.
- 14/02/2010 02:03:27 AM
1679 Views
No I don't think that's right.
- 14/02/2010 08:54:32 AM
1607 Views
Asari
- 15/02/2010 06:51:10 AM
1713 Views
Not really.
- 15/02/2010 10:41:54 PM
1668 Views
Though it is fun seeing the asari coupled with basically every race under the sun.
- 15/02/2010 10:54:41 PM
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The final verdict
- 22/02/2010 08:06:12 PM
1678 Views
By the way, my game was surprisingly buggy
- 23/02/2010 08:49:28 AM
1833 Views
A complaint about the Morality system. (Or, how Mass Effect semi-killed roleplaying).
- 27/02/2010 06:40:35 AM
1759 Views
Re: A complaint about the Morality system. (Or, how Mass Effect semi-killed roleplaying).
- 27/02/2010 12:28:29 PM
1607 Views
Re: A complaint about the Morality system. (Or, how Mass Effect semi-killed roleplaying).
- 27/02/2010 04:57:43 PM
1660 Views
Re: A complaint about the Morality system. (Or, how Mass Effect semi-killed roleplaying).
- 28/02/2010 12:34:31 AM
1715 Views
A vital part of role-playing is forcing the player to deal with the consequences of their actions
- 27/02/2010 11:53:56 PM
1957 Views
Admittedly, my post was somewhat stream-of-consciousness.
- 28/02/2010 03:28:02 AM
1672 Views
