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Actually, the article that got the commentary, I left your not-particularly risible words alone Cannoli Send a noteboard - 14/06/2018 06:12:58 AM

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I hope you don't mind that I really don't see much point in responding in kind, though.
Hrmph. You try to make an effort...
Of course Trump was never going to achieve any very impressive result in just one brief summit, so it's not as if he disappointed people's expectations that badly. But for North Korea, having the summit at all and all the attention and praise from Trump for Kim is a very impressive result in itself. However you look at it, it's curious how a man who's been boasting for such a long time about how good a negotiator he is, gave the other side a big win while getting almost literally nothing out of it. The only way that makes sense is if you're very confident that you will get something bigger down the line as a result - but given North Korea's behaviour in the past, that seems dangerously optimistic. We can't help comparing to the Iran deal and Trump's vehement criticism of that - the way he started off the negotiations with North Korea, it's hard to see how he'd get to even as good a deal as Obama and the others got with Iran, never mind a better one.

The military exercises thing - agreed that there are valid arguments for stopping them, I'm not opposed to stopping them as such. And as I said, just because Trump announced this doesn't mean he can't announce the opposite tomorrow, this could be one of the cases where having a reputation for not living up to your word is actually beneficial. But supposing for a minute that he does stick to that announcement, the problem with that is A) he gives up even more leverage for free, and B) he didn't consult South Korea on it first. Neither of those things will matter in the long run if he somehow achieves lasting peace in Korea, that's true - but they don't appear to make that task any easier.


I still don't see how he's given anything away of substance. He's given them compliments & photo-ops. Now maybe this is a big deal in the conventional practices of diplomacy & official statements, but the same statesmen who would have refused to even meet with Kim would also not have made the same sort of comments about the summit with which the article took such exception in its opening paragraph.

I heard once during the campaign that Trump's followers took him seriously but not literally and his critics, and the media took him literally, but not seriously. No one expected him to prosecute every Mexican for rape or throw Clinton in prison, what they liked was that he saw things the same way. That too many Mexicans are criminally inclined and that Crooked Hillary deserves to be in prison. It's liberals get all nitpicky about that stuff and prosecute people for Nazism when they film dog tricks and fire people for thought crime and aberrant expressions. What's the conservative equivalent of suing wedding cake bakers and pizzerias? They fire teachers from private schools for going explicitly against the curriculum, whereas liberals fire public school teachers for off-campus political activity.

Trump ran against political correctness and thought-policing, and he's not going to parse his words the way liberals demand of conservative or Republican politicians and public figures, with major policy shifts being deliberately signaled by minute turns of phrase. As should be fairly obvious as of the last three years.

With that in mind, the stuff he "gave" North Korea & Kim, is negligible, and nothing the US is going to suffer for missing. The concessions he suggests are beneficial to the US as well, as it frees up military resources and brings the troops home. He's not proposing to throw good money after bad.

Regarding the dangers of sticking with his announcement, A) he can always go right back to insulting and publicly mocking Kim (you can look at the history of his commentary on the man as evidence of his negotiating ability - by leading off with the Rocket Man insult, he got Kim to a place where he was as happy as the article suggests by getting a friendly meeting and genial compliments) and B) who on Earth cares about South Korea's opinion? If they need US troops & military aid, they can bend over and take it. This is not a mutual threat we are facing together, where we need to be terrified of our allies backing out and seeking a separate peace. If South Korea wants to have a foreign policy opinion, they can call the White House and politely ask what it should be. This is not the days of Mahan where we need bases around the world to project power. We have a nuclear powered navy bigger than any two others. If we need to project power somewhere (and we don't), we can go and do it without needing a friendly country in which to land planes. And there has been no president with more credibility to follow through with such a policy than Trump.

Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Cannoli on 14/06/2018 at 06:13:32 AM
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So. Trump and the little rocket man. - 13/06/2018 10:09:45 PM 859 Views
Typical nonsense - 13/06/2018 11:12:19 PM 480 Views
Wow, I get line by line commentary... nice. - 14/06/2018 12:22:12 AM 386 Views
Actually, the article that got the commentary, I left your not-particularly risible words alone - 14/06/2018 06:12:58 AM 505 Views
The point is, in a negotiation, it's about what things are worth to the other side - not to you. - 14/06/2018 08:04:30 AM 407 Views
Mostly agree with you - 14/06/2018 10:25:35 AM 412 Views
Terrifying if Trump's emotive language is genuine - 13/06/2018 11:27:37 PM 542 Views
Have you ever worked with someone... - 14/06/2018 05:03:19 PM 419 Views
Re: Have you ever worked with someone... - 15/06/2018 09:14:50 PM 511 Views
So less on the article... - 14/06/2018 05:01:26 PM 413 Views
As I said to Cannoli - it's not about what it costs the US, but about what it's worth to North Korea - 14/06/2018 07:26:43 PM 433 Views
Trump doesn't care what Kim and North Korea pretend... - 14/06/2018 07:48:26 PM 393 Views
It certainly seems that way. - 14/06/2018 11:14:58 PM 414 Views
The conservative never-Trumpers hate him as much, if not more, than the liberals. - 14/06/2018 11:36:46 PM 393 Views
As they should. - 15/06/2018 12:02:40 AM 416 Views
What real worlkd gains does Norht Korea get? - 14/06/2018 08:40:32 PM 402 Views
So let them think it... - 14/06/2018 10:21:46 PM 434 Views
Funny how it went from Trump is going to start WWIII to Trump caved - 14/06/2018 07:21:44 PM 453 Views
Um, yes. Trump radically changed his position, so the media descriptions changed too? - 14/06/2018 07:40:37 PM 405 Views
The problem is the media posistion is always the same, Trump is wrong. - 14/06/2018 08:30:38 PM 388 Views
That would be more convincing if you said it in a case where he was right. - 14/06/2018 09:17:43 PM 399 Views
I don't agree... - 14/06/2018 09:37:23 PM 401 Views
I agree with this. - 14/06/2018 10:08:27 PM 437 Views
They're not contradictory - just a bit more subtle than having two binary options. - 14/06/2018 11:01:39 PM 531 Views
Well - 15/06/2018 12:03:41 AM 415 Views
Here you are being too optimistic. Sadly for the US and the world. - 15/06/2018 05:55:14 PM 411 Views
I'm *kinda* with you? - 20/06/2018 04:20:46 PM 424 Views
Ratings are creeping up because of outrage fatigue ? That makes no sense. - 20/06/2018 09:02:17 AM 422 Views
Sure it does. - 22/06/2018 10:02:39 PM 426 Views
It's a start, albeit a very weak start. - 15/06/2018 05:49:27 PM 390 Views
Wouldn't that be ironic? - 15/06/2018 06:03:37 PM 429 Views
Nothing here *NM* - 15/06/2018 09:10:51 PM 261 Views

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