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Re: The idea is free from foreign oppression - internal freedom is, indeed, another story. Legolas Send a noteboard - 14/12/2023 03:39:55 PM

View original postI think you just made an argument against sanctioning Israel itself, or even Apartheid South Africa. I'm not saying you're wrong, just that your argument, if correct, probably proves too much.

My argument didn't deal with multi-national entities in which one people/nation/ethnicity oppresses others, true. In the cases of Israel and Apartheid South Africa, said dominant people just happens to have European roots (we recently discussed elsewhere about the many Israeli Jews with Middle Eastern or African roots, but the ones who founded the country were still overwhelmingly Ashkenazis), but of course there are also cases like Nigeria, Myanmar, etc. where the struggle is/was entirely between different native peoples. Though on that point, the former colonizers often actually encouraged such local strife based on a 'divide and conquer' mindset, including to some extent even the UK in Israel/Palestine in the Mandate period...
View original postBut I guess generally you agree that a 'free Palestine' is probably going to remain shitty for the newly-'freed', unless they're the ones in power. (And maybe even that those in the West who chant the phrase in question are mostly cynics who don't care overmuch about freedom)

Cynics? Rather too naive idealists, I'd say.

For what it's worth, it's often pointed out that the combination of both positive and negative Israeli influence has made the Palestinians among the best educated and in some ways most liberalized Arabs. Their Christian and Druze minorities, like in Lebanon, may also have played some role in that - forming sort of a bridge between different cultures. So they might have some advantages over the likes of Saudi Arabia or Iran - but then, they'd be far poorer and surely still destabilized by their violent history. So indeed, I'm not too optimistic about what the government of a free Palestine would look like.

If I'm really dreaming about utopian solutions, personally I think that ultimately a single state for both Jews and Palestinians would be the best for all involved - but in the real world, that seems even less plausible than a two state solution.

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The false narrative of the double standard - 09/12/2023 02:33:25 PM 382 Views
ok *NM* - 09/12/2023 07:27:01 PM 36 Views
Is this a good summary, NYT? - 10/12/2023 01:20:47 AM 97 Views
It's as good as any. - 10/12/2023 04:38:59 PM 78 Views
I noticed the OP was mostly opinion - 10/12/2023 05:02:11 PM 74 Views
They dug their own graves - 11/12/2023 12:24:16 AM 86 Views
Re: They dug their own graves - 11/12/2023 03:15:59 AM 74 Views
rhetorical question Mookie (it does not matter the answer) - 11/12/2023 03:45:11 AM 82 Views
I have not - 11/12/2023 02:49:55 PM 81 Views
Yeah that is why I asked - 11/12/2023 04:24:40 PM 72 Views
There's a lot of double standards involved, aren't there? - 11/12/2023 07:02:06 PM 91 Views
We could go on and on with this - 11/12/2023 08:58:28 PM 78 Views
that has NOT been my experience - 11/12/2023 09:18:43 PM 79 Views
Yep, I know. - 12/12/2023 06:18:49 PM 82 Views
Re: Yep, I know. - 12/12/2023 08:04:57 PM 74 Views
Re: Yep, I know. - 14/12/2023 01:33:53 PM 57 Views
Where do you get your stats ? - 14/12/2023 07:09:02 AM 76 Views
the Hamas Ministry of Stats is likely an under-count - 14/12/2023 12:57:46 PM 68 Views
Given the nature of Hamas, the numbers are likely an overcount - 14/12/2023 01:16:00 PM 72 Views
whatever - 14/12/2023 02:50:53 PM 73 Views
Given the choice between believing a Democracy and an Autocratic Terrorist Gov - 14/12/2023 04:01:54 PM 71 Views
Chora I believe both are capable of lying - 14/12/2023 04:16:14 PM 75 Views
To quote you, gurlfriend, "whatever". - 14/12/2023 04:19:10 PM 67 Views
Obviously, anyone is capable of lying. - 14/12/2023 04:30:29 PM 66 Views
the names that Hamas was releasing in October - 14/12/2023 04:49:06 PM 75 Views
What stats are you contesting, exactly? - 14/12/2023 02:12:18 PM 66 Views
Re: What stats are you contesting, exactly? - 17/12/2023 02:34:34 PM 67 Views
Yeah, I'm still confused what you're trying to claim about the numbers - 17/12/2023 10:51:00 PM 67 Views
Out of curiosity, what do you think the best way forward is? - 18/12/2023 03:52:34 AM 79 Views
I'm not sure your view of me on this is that accurate. - 20/12/2023 08:06:23 PM 62 Views
Because no one in the Arab world wants the "Palestinians" - 14/12/2023 01:18:31 PM 66 Views
GDP per capita in Palestine is almost exactly equal to Egypt - 14/12/2023 05:36:55 PM 67 Views
There's always Antarctica - 16/12/2023 03:22:01 AM 63 Views
From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free - 13/12/2023 03:01:21 PM 72 Views
The idea is free from foreign oppression - internal freedom is, indeed, another story. - 14/12/2023 02:33:21 PM 67 Views
Re: The idea is free from foreign oppression - internal freedom is, indeed, another story. - 14/12/2023 03:13:36 PM 68 Views
Re: The idea is free from foreign oppression - internal freedom is, indeed, another story. - 14/12/2023 03:39:55 PM 66 Views
From my perspective, - 14/12/2023 04:09:31 PM 72 Views
It means free of Jews - 17/12/2023 02:41:09 PM 65 Views
Re: From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free - 14/12/2023 03:32:17 PM 68 Views
Is the point to imply that 'pre-1948' meant no Israeli state at all? - 14/12/2023 03:56:59 PM 64 Views
Exactly - 14/12/2023 04:28:01 PM 72 Views
Those 3 Presidents are Bureaucratic Scum. - 14/12/2023 01:21:56 PM 73 Views
So Claudine Gay, Harvard Pres resigns - 02/01/2024 05:55:09 PM 55 Views
Re: So Claudine Gay, Harvard Pres resigns - 03/01/2024 04:38:14 PM 49 Views
Hey that’s not fair! - 03/01/2024 10:51:43 PM 57 Views

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