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I doubt he needs one. They just get in the way. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 02/06/2010 05:14:08 PM

I think that the Pattern tries to match up the Dragon with a suitable mate - someone who will satisfy him in every way. Considering he's the greatest man in the world, he needs a woman of equal prowess.
Why? Even assuming that it is true he's the greatest man in the world, why does he need a woman to match him in accomplishments? Just because two people are equal in accomplishments or quality does not make them good partners for each other, even leaving aside the personality issues, and just because their scale of accomplishments and achievements are not commensurate does not make them less than equal as people.

In the AOL, the Pattern might have tried Mierin initially. She seemed to have everything except that her personality was flawed, so that didn't work out.
That's like saying "I have a wonderful car, but it has a seriously malfunctioning engine. I don't mind, though, because the paint job is SOOOO nice." Talk about flawed personalities...

Ilyena seemed to have been the next 'ultimate woman'. We don't know much about her, but she was in no way some cheap barmaid that LTT was attracted to. As Ilyena Sunhair, she seemed to have considerable prowess as an Aes Sedai.
Achtung! Clearly the cognomen "Sunhair" is sufficient evidence of a person's greatness. Jawohl! Sieg heil!

I don't think that any women of equal stature occur in the 3rd Age, which is why the Pattern clumped him with three women. Even if he'd been paired with the best of what the Age had to offer (probably someone like Elayne), he would have felt unfulfilled. Women like Ilyena don't exist anymore. We've seen Egwene and Min feeling unsubstantial when Lanfear appears - and that's just from her appearance.
And their own vast character deficiencies that they should place such a value on such criteria. Min is vapid and shallow and obsessed with her self-image and Egwene cannot stand to seem less than anyone in any way.

The three women equalling Ilyena is an old theory, but I do think collectively they are Ilyena's essence - but definitely not her soul or ancestry etc.

Aviendha - passionate, aggressive, dashain Aiel, channeler, attractive
Yes, yes...all well-known, oft-cited characteristics of Ilyena. You DO realize that absolutely none of these characteristics denotes or connotes "good" in any way, right? Lanfear, Semirhage, Graendal, Rahvin, Moridin, Sevanna, Couladin, Hitler...the list of passionate and aggressive people who are evil goes on and on. Aviendha is not at all da'shain Aiel, since she is NOT dedicated to peace in any way shape or form. Her being descended from them is at such great remove (her ancestors probably quit being dai'shain before the White Tower was founded, let alone built) as to accuse me of guilt for the sack of Rome. My ancestors were contemporaneous with that event much more recently than Aviendha's were dai'shain.

Elayne - educated, noble, channeler, tenacious, attractive
Educated, again, is a nuetral trait, shared by characters such as Ishamael, Mesaana, Ba'althamel, Alviarin, Falion, Rianna, Marilin, Eldrith and every other Black sister in the Brown & White Ajahs. Noble birth is more of a hinderance than an asset to positive personality development or achievement. While a help in gaining worldly power and acclaim, genuine achievement requires fortitude and true depth of character which is best forged in adversity, something to which nobles tend to be exposed to less than others. Elayne's character was tempered in different kinds of adversity, but the trait of nobility alone is meaningless, even on an objective enumeration of material assets, as in the period described in WoT, it is on the verge of losing its meaning for political power and dwindling to a mere indicator of social status. Nobilty merely means access to a certain amount of power, not the possession of any real power itself. All the top villains are tenacious, which is why they are still around. And of course, the channeling thing is bunk, since channelers are responsible for the overwhelming majority of the problems facing the Dragon & humanity.

Min - empathy, goodwill, philosophy, uncomplicated, atractive
At least the traits you listed for the others, while not indicative of personal worth, were actually assets. This is practicall a Hallmark card.

Ilyena was probably all of these in one.
Really? Because all we know about her is that an insane personality manifestation is obsessed with her, and that most of the few specific memories that arise have to do with her willingness to bitch at her husband.

I do think that AOL women (and men) are of much higher quality.
If this in any way reflects your real life attitudes, you are a disgusting individual. I cannot believe you really accept that a list of skills and societal advantages makes someone "higher quality." The differences in "quality" of an AoLer and a 3rdAger are akin to those between a contemporary American, Western European or Pacific Rim native and someone from a third world country. Shallow and superficial and even the seemingly innate characteristics (physical prowess or channeling strength) can be attributed to environmental factors of the time or place into which someone was born.

We've only really got the Forsaken to go on, so that makes evidence tough,
Did you ever think that maybe they ARE the exemplars of their Age, and that was the PROBLEM with that Age? This WAS the Age that built the Sharom just because they could, and ignoring the inherent dangers in a floating building above a major city. Hubris and arrogance are more the hallmarks of the AoL than anything else. We have absolutely no indication of any tendency to genuine goodness or courage or cardinal virtues. Just a crapload of capital sins.

but ignoring their evil personalities they're remarkably accomplished people in general : almost all of them are attractive, physically strong and well educated.
Physically strong, yet they tend to lose when the ThirdAgers get them down to a physical contest. Physical pain is usually a key factor in defeating them, while the primitives blunder on, accustomed to "the thousand natural shocks that the flesh is heir to..." Seriously, on WHAT evidence do you cite their superior physical strength? What feats of strength do ANY of them achieve? Bel'al's swordsmanship is hardly a thing of brute strength, as Rand notes that counts little in swordsmanship in LoC.

It seems that, like channeling, 3rd Age people are a level down in quality. They're a select group in many ways, so they're poor evidence - but Rand's visions of the AOL showed that the Aes Sedai in the Breaking were generally up there too. There really wasn't much for the Pattern to work with to suit up the DR with a mate.
Being a channeler is a mere skill, like being a crack shot. A lot has to do with the system, too. In effect, you are comparing the marksmanship of people who must teach themselves to shoot with a flintlock musket to trained snipers in a professional military organization with modern weaponry. I'd bet that given the techniques and continuity the people at the end of the AoL had access to, the Third Agers would blow them out of the water. The AoLers lived in a time when their technology and facilitating infrastructure was built by people who stood on the shoulders of giants. There is not one indication that anyone from the AoL was actually one of the architects of that utopia. Rather they are the inheritors and (inadequate) caretakers of what their superior predecessors gave them. Sure the AoL people who lived a thousand years before the Breaking might have been a superior breed of human, or at least produced a small revolutionary clique who were able to create the system, but the AoL types were neither the designers nor the products of a superior system, they were the beneficiaries of it. As well to say that Stalin or Hitler exemplified the courage and ferocity and warcraft of the Red Army and Wehrmacht. The did not, they simply lived off the benefits of what better men wrought. Maybe they could have been as good or done as well in that other life, but in any case, they were still scumbags, whatever they achieved and however politically skilled and intelligent they might have been.

I personally think that Nynaeve comes closest to AOL greatness (if you believe that Age to be superior : some readers don't). She seems to be an all-round accomplished woman, which is why Legendary Lan likes her so much.
She is NOT all-round accomplished. She has some specialized channeling Talents and her overall levels of that ability are woefully deficient. She might be the absolute worst channeler currently wearing the shawl, and has the least education or sophistication of the three so-called Wondergirls. She is the most earthy, primitive, parochial, insular and limited and scope and prespective, and her very greatness and success (all of it hard-won; don't forget that every moment of Nynaeve supremacy comes after pages if not chapters of her being embarassed or foiled or tripped up) prove the irrelevance of all the criteria you cite as "quality." "Legendary" Lan is so because of a situation into which he was born. Of achievements, he has precious little beyond an apparentlty extraordinary survival record in a blindly futile endeavor. His self-destructive vocation was a means of trying to end his life which he saw as hopeless and pointless since he could never live up to the legend hung about his neck at birth. His extraordinary skills testify to his personal qualities by showing the extent to which he succeeded in trying to match the expectations set up for him, but a large part of his legend has nothing to do with him, and everything to do with a romantic backstory and the unwillingness of people to accept a loss and move on. Lan's a great guy who did his best to live up to a wildly unrealistic ideal others aspired for him to meet. Kind of like a Kennedy, only competent, not a degenerate ass. His appreciation of Nynaeve rests entirely in the assessment of her qualities his experience gives him, particularly his experience in just what crap a legendary reputation is worth. No doubt her own appreciation of him has to do with her recognizing the pressure he has had to live with and the fact that it still produced someone that good. Her line "I might have known you would be a king" has absolutely nothing to do with the reality of kings in WoT, and rather an acknowledgement that he lives up to the ideals people hold for a king.

Your complete misidenification of Nynaeve's & Lan's greatness and its relationship to their suitablity for each other is akin to your assumption that the Dragon needs a woman of equally artificial stature. As the indispensible man, he has no need of a partner, since any such would fall short of his level of indispensibility, and thus could never be his equal. At the same time, as a human being, what he needs in a mate, to complement him and to share his life has absolutely nothing to do with achievements or bullet points on a list of assets. Likewise, the woman(en) who would have a husband do what Rand must will need strength of character that, again, has nothing to do with things that inflate her resume.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
This message last edited by Cannoli on 08/06/2010 at 06:04:00 PM
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Matching the Dragon with a mate - 02/06/2010 10:09:49 AM 1400 Views
I think there is more to these women than simply being the Dragon's Mate - 02/06/2010 12:09:10 PM 728 Views
I agree with darius. Also, 2/3rds of Rand's women - 02/06/2010 02:38:13 PM 685 Views
What more IS there to being a woman? - 02/06/2010 03:52:23 PM 790 Views
Re: What more IS there to being a woman? - 02/06/2010 04:58:36 PM 650 Views
Re: What more IS there to being a woman? - 03/06/2010 08:51:25 AM 590 Views
riiiight - 03/06/2010 11:20:31 AM 503 Views
Re: riiiight - 03/06/2010 01:53:49 PM 622 Views
the problem with your working out how strong they are is that it always begins with how much - 03/06/2010 02:14:08 PM 644 Views
Re: the problem with your working out how strong they are is that it always begins with how much - 03/06/2010 02:23:32 PM 721 Views
Oh Sid! - 03/06/2010 02:53:48 PM 599 Views
Re: Oh Sid! - 04/06/2010 04:58:13 AM 488 Views
Like who - 01/07/2010 12:40:14 PM 530 Views
Ditto - 04/06/2010 04:41:15 PM 660 Views
Re: Ditto - 04/06/2010 04:56:45 PM 961 Views
I never said that's all they were - 03/06/2010 08:49:53 AM 615 Views
Re: I never said that's all they were - 03/06/2010 11:44:51 AM 651 Views
Re: I never said that's all they were - 03/06/2010 02:04:29 PM 593 Views
totally disagree! - 03/06/2010 02:50:58 PM 695 Views
Yeah Nynaeve is fantastic - 02/06/2010 12:48:56 PM 671 Views
oh dear god no - 02/06/2010 02:41:13 PM 620 Views
Re: oh dear god no - 02/06/2010 02:55:55 PM 693 Views
Re: Yeah Nynaeve is fantastic - 03/06/2010 08:51:52 AM 570 Views
Re: Matching the Dragon with a mate - 02/06/2010 02:15:35 PM 824 Views
*NM* - 02/06/2010 03:54:04 PM 262 Views
beautiful post!!!!!! *NM* - 02/06/2010 04:03:55 PM 403 Views
Great post, but I would disagree with the top part - 02/06/2010 05:58:59 PM 691 Views
Re: Great post, but I would disagree with the top part - 03/06/2010 04:27:28 AM 688 Views
The pattern makes Rand the greatest man alive *NM* - 03/06/2010 10:35:05 AM 250 Views
Regarding the number of Darkfriends - 02/06/2010 07:06:08 PM 725 Views
Re: Regarding the number of Darkfriends - 03/06/2010 04:34:54 AM 605 Views
Re: Matching the Dragon with a mate - 03/06/2010 09:27:05 AM 703 Views
LOL - 03/06/2010 12:01:27 PM 559 Views
Re: LOL - 03/06/2010 12:41:20 PM 569 Views
Excellent point! - 03/06/2010 12:50:03 PM 591 Views
Re: Excellent point! - 03/06/2010 01:34:04 PM 778 Views
Re: Excellent point! - 03/06/2010 02:05:19 PM 680 Views
We don't even know how third names were earned - 03/06/2010 02:31:46 PM 637 Views
The point isn't her strength or beauty - 03/06/2010 03:01:03 PM 669 Views
Yeah, if only it was accurate - 03/06/2010 01:51:48 PM 742 Views
Re: Yeah, if only it was accurate - 03/06/2010 03:13:05 PM 700 Views
Re: Matching the Dragon with a mate - 03/06/2010 01:18:14 PM 735 Views
Re: Matching the Dragon with a mate - 03/06/2010 02:20:05 PM 653 Views
Reasonable scientific venture - 01/07/2010 10:23:06 AM 764 Views
I think there is more to these characters than being a mate, and I don't think the Pattern cares. - 02/06/2010 03:23:13 PM 630 Views
Hmm... - 03/06/2010 09:28:55 AM 608 Views
Because the variables we see are rarely as specific. - 03/06/2010 03:18:16 PM 566 Views
I doubt he needs one. They just get in the way. - 02/06/2010 05:14:08 PM 797 Views
Re: I doubt he needs one. They just get in the way. - 02/06/2010 08:30:32 PM 593 Views
- 02/06/2010 10:42:17 PM 591 Views
Meh. How do we know they aren't awarded the way the Nobel Peace Prize is in our world? - 02/06/2010 11:33:48 PM 620 Views
I don't know if Lanfear, the perfect woman didn't have a 3rd name it must have been - 02/06/2010 11:49:02 PM 533 Views
Lews Therin browbeat the Third Name Committee! - 03/06/2010 07:48:41 AM 535 Views
LOL *NM* - 03/06/2010 12:03:07 PM 338 Views
LOL They called it "Tamyrlin-Gate" =) *NM* - 04/06/2010 09:48:28 PM 233 Views

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