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Re: Serious ramblings about WOT Cannoli Send a noteboard - 22/12/2010 07:01:17 AM
I also despise Elayne. I cannot understand how Cannoli and his gang can think Egwene annoying and Elayne okay.


Their similarities are fairly superficial. I don't see how people can say they are the same at all. The things people claim are the same about them, to me are a kind of inverse of the proverbial exceptions that prove the rules; that is, the small things they have in common highlight their differences. I.e. Both are rulers, whose arcs over the last few books have involved purely political storylines. But Egwene is doing whatever she wants and has no valid claim to her power, and acts hypocritically in her accusations against her enemy. Her sole claim to superiority over her adversary rests on her supposed superior suitability for the job, when she is much more like her enemy than she admits. Elaida has been unable to enforce the garbage clean-up (if in fact, that is normal garbage failure and not a manifestation of the Dark One's touch and a Forsaken's residency in the city, similar to the scheming Caemlyn during Rahvin's reign or the anger & violence in Illian under Sammael or the despair in Tear under Bel'al), which Egwene duly makes much hay out of, but Egwene herself consciously and deliberately inflicted permanent and difficult to fix damage on the harbor that is the very lifeline of the city, and could destroy the entire economy impoverishing thousands solely because they happened to live close to the woman who holds a job Egwene desires for herself. By contrast, Elayne, with an uncontested right to her office, is scrupulous in honoring the laws and customs surrounding the selection, when morally speaking, she could be justified in using more brutal and direct measures since her adversaries are attempting to steal what is hers by right.

I can understand her from a literary point of view, if she was used as pure comic relief as the spoiled noblegirl brat who despite her distaste for it had to mingle among the trash for a while, and unexpectedly found some of them to be rather nice, if unpolished.
Well that has absolutely nothing to do with the character. In no way, shape or form could the term spoiled be applied to her in any serious way. Sure she is accustomed to luxuries that few of the other characters are, but that hardly makes her spoiled, since it never affects her actions. This "spoiled" and slumming daughter of a queen has as her best friends, the daughters of a miner, an innkeeper, a farmer and a barbarian whose people killed most of her paternal kin. Most of whom benefit more from her friendship with them than the other way around. The most her royal upbringing does is skew her perspective slightly, as when she is unaware of the value of her clothing compared to ordinary people and worries about the cost of procuring replacement garments, or when, from Nynaeve's perspective, she is too liberal with her charity and tips. Not having any firm information on prices and costs and incomes in WoT, much less the customs of tipping, we have no idea whether Nynaeve's view of her profligacy or hers of Nynaeve's penury is more accurate. Beyond that, we see that not only is she willing to contribute to the daily-chores labor when traveling with her peasant companions, she is better at such tasks than the two women who grew up having to do these things for themselves. She does the sewing in tDR to alter their clothes when traveling with Egwene & Nynaeve, the former of whom notes her skill, and when she & Nynaeve are with the circus, her cooking draws dinner guests, while Nynaeve's drives away everyone but Elayne (note that despite being the closest to a gourmand among the characters, she nevertheless eats with Nynaeve, when Thom, Juilin and Luca flee to a tastier meal, despite knowing Nynaeve longer than Elayne has or being sexually attracted to her). Please tell me how, in any meaningful sense of the word, Elayne acts spoiled?

Hello! Carried on her four-poster bed to a inspection atop a tall tower!
It was not her choice. She was ordered to remain in bed, and was not going to be allowed out. Birgitte could have put a stop to that practice by letting her walk. And it was not a routine inspection as you imply, but the first trials of a revolutionary new weapon. NOT going to witness that would have been a severe dereliction of her duty. It's not her fault they have not invented wheelchairs or a gurney in WoT, or some sort of device that would let her monitor the tests remotely.

Thinking of Mat as a unruly subject and "training" him to be a more loyal and "good" subject while her mind should have been on much more important things
Like WHAT? They are traveling on horseback for a period of days! What SHOULD her mind have been on, besides working to curtail a potential danger to her mission to save the world from the Dark One's touch. Remember that although we as readers may see her and Mat as Good Guys and assume that because they are On the Same Side, they should treat one another as such, in her eyes, he is a wild card whom her two closest friends who are common acquaintances with him also mistrust and speak ill of. She hardly knows Mat - at that point, all she has to go on is the judgement of Egwene and Nynaeve, either of whom say anything to give her any reason to trust him or be in any way at ease with his tagging along on their mission with a squad of soldiers who are loyal to him first.

And then there is the fact that even at that point in the story, she had a better claim on Mat's allegiance than Egwene did on the White Tower or Red Ajah, but plenty of people are willing to make arguments in support of the latter claim. The Two Rivers was always a de jure part of her realm, and Elayne, as a member of the royal family of his country AND an Aes Sedai has reason to expect a certain degree of deference from an ordinary man. This is a classic case of the PoV trap in action. Because that episode is told entirely through Mat's PoV, we are led to sympathize with him, and are not given her reasoning and mindset. Thus, we rail at her attempts to assert her rightful authority over the PoV character, but sympathize with her position IN THE EXACT SAME MANNER regarding two Aes Sedai who had barely appeared in the series to that point. When Elayne tries to assert her heretofore expected social superiority over two women who have centuries more experience in that sphere, we are on her side. When she tries to assert her heretofore expected social superiority over a young man with no claim to authority or position or apparent importance and who she is led to believe poses a danger to her vital-to-the-world mission, we fume, because the PoV trap lines us up behind the semi-literate debauched lecher, who is fuming about the feminity of his traveling companions and belittling them in his mind while they try to save the world from the Dark One.

and she definitely should have stepped out of her noblewoman role (I usually have little or no sympathy for him, but compared to Elayne he is a dream come true).
Why?

Her claim for the Cairhienin throne, without even considering that Galad at least as her older brother Damodred in a nation that is after all not biased against male monarchs,
Why don't you find me ONE quote supporting the prevalence of primogeniture in the succession of the Cairhienin monarchy? The only other place we see the issue being discussed is regarding Moiraine and her sisters' position to succeed their late uncle to that same throne. The age of the various sisters does not come into the considerations at all, while the qualifications of each to hold the office certainly does. In the case of her claim, what made her attractive and appealing as a candidate did not apply to her brother. Her being identified with a foreign House and a foreign nation gave her a certain nuetrality among the factions (and a little detail like which parent's name she uses means a great deal in such schemes where appearance and perception count at least as much as reality), which Galad lacks. She also brings her own power to the table as a player, as well as her training in administration and government, while Galad not only has little or no experience in that, would almost certainly have NOT been trained for such things: being raised in Andor, a great deal of care would have been taken to prevent him from getting any sort of ideas about ruling himself. Finally, and most importantly, the Dragon Reborn doesn't know the first thing about him, whereas from her advice on governing Tear, he at least has reason to believe he can work with Elayne to govern Cairhien. And he also has good reason to believe that while Elayne on both thrones means peace and cooperation between two nations in his coalition, Elayne on one throne and Galad on the other guarantees no such thing. He has certainly witnessed her hostility to him, and Mat once noted that Galad's shortcomings is a favorite topic of conversation with her. In a situation where the favor of the Dragon Reborn is a crucial factor, Elayne wins hands down. How you personally think a royal succession should be decided does not mean flying fuck. By the demonstrated workings of WoT, she is a better candidate.

or at least a handful of cairhienin nobility would be better suited for it (her ascent to the Andoran throne was at least lawfully natural in a feudal society, even if she was one of the least qualified for the job; Dyelin seems like she would be a better queen even than Morgase, who seem like a rather good queen from the tidbits we have gotten of her reign).
Bullshit. According to even accounts of people favorably disposed to her, a picture of Morgase as a queen governed by her emotions all but leaps off the page. What accomplishments does she have as queen, aside from inspiring widespread dissatisfaction and a majority opposing her and rioting against her rule, well before any Forsaken showed up to take the blame? Sure, the Aes Sedai like her, but it is implied in the first conversation any of them have about her, that she overcompensates for her failure to reach the shawl herself by all-out favoritism of the Tower, even to the detriment of her country. As for Dyelin, what evidence do you offer to support your position? When she differs with Elayne on policy, she is always wrong. She, according to Rand's commanders, is too beholden to Aes Sedai, and is too timid herself. Had Elayne taken her advice in the prologue of Winter's Heart, she'd have lost Caemlyn to her enemies, and have NO hope of making any sort of contribution at Tarmon Gaidon or resisting any Seanchan incursion. Elayne was the one who correctly predicted the opposition she faced and best described their military situation. Dyelin would have been just fine in any other time, but not in the current circumstances, where she lacks the capacity to adjust to the extreme circumstances and extraordinary situations the queen will have to deal with.

And countless other occations! I remember reading (I think it was Cannoli) a comparison between the girlfriends of Rand, where Min came out short and Elayne was supposedly on top.
As characters yes, but as girlfriends I have always stated my preference for Aviendha with Rand and my contempt for the foursome. So it was probably not me.
Min is studying intensely, gathering knowledge that the world needs and competance in general scholarly activity.
Meh. So she MIGHT be useful at the VERY end. That's like a football game ending on a score of 52-49 and claiming the kicker is responsible because his three points in the closing seconds put them over the top, and never mind the seven touchdowns they scored before that without his help, or the efforts made to get him into position to make that kick.
She is well on her way to becoming important in her own volition, not as something she inherited.
Notice how she did not become a scholar until she got into position to sponge off her boyfriend and her overall uselessness gave her the leisure to puruse her self-improvement.
Elayne is a spoiled brat
The one who gets along with almost every character, is repeatedly characterized as the peacemaker of any given group and who is faulted for her generosity and charity is a spoiled brat. I'm guessing your reading comprehension skills rank somewhere with Min's channeling ability. What do you do, plug in your preformed assumptions about every character who is a royal daughter?
that has just risen to her current position because she is selfish, power-hungry and inherited a title.
She inherited it. How does that make her power-hungry? She put that power on a back burner, too, in order to pursue what she perceived as a greater good, and when she had the throne all but won, offered to stand down for Dyelin in the name of national unity. At that point, she had a plurality and was only a single vote short and had three rivals imprisoned and their votes removed from the field. She had no reason to despair of victory and better prospects of gaining the power than anyone else, but offered to sacrifice it for the good of the country. Why don't you show me any particular point where she craved power or saw it as anything more than a duty to be discharged. What has she ever done that is selfish? She is the one keeping the whole "equal sharing" thing going between Rand's girlfriends intact (despite Min & Aviendha having the necessity of the situation imposed on their consciousness by supernatural means), and even redesigned a weave to enable her sisters to share in a bond that she could have had to herself with no arguments from the other two.

She has gotten everything on a silver platter, and barely became queen despite this because she failed to convince anyone older than 16, excepting Dyelin (the reasoning behind which seems to be her desire to avoid civil war), that she was competent to take the throne.
Did you miss where two other guys stood for her based on the answers she gave, rather than simply aligning with their traditional alliances and rivalries? Who did anyone else convince? Arymilla only convinced a senile old coot, and held the others hostage or promised bribes, while Ellorien and her faction were ready to defy the prophecied savior of mankind over their personal pique and supported Dyelin only because she was not a Trakand or a completely selfish enemy scumbag. What DID she have handed to her? She had to fight for a throne that should have been hers by rights. She rediscovered an ability forgotten for three thousand years, because she had the guts to study an object most channelers could not bring themselves to touch, and was smart enough figure out how it worked. It was for those discoveries that she EARNED in the eyes of the sisters a promotion past the ranks of Accepted at an almost unprecedentedly young age (Moiraine set a speed record and was 22), as opposed to getting it because they thought she was retarded enough to make an acceptable puppet (not to mention an expendable sacrifice if necessary). Even in her personal life, she has the shortest stick romance-wise in the series. She's had a grand total of three days and one night with the object of her affection, while inventing weaves to facilitate her friends' relationships with the same man and letting one of them go off with him and sleep together with no recriminations. And the one time she indulges and has sex, she gets pregnant which is a massive inconvenience for her. Meanwhile, Egwene gets a pre-whipped guy and treats him in an appalling fashion, while Elayne's mere declaration of political independance (in accordance with the stated policies of her boyfriend) has readers cursing her name as an unworthy love interest. At least she does not demand her (actually bonded) Warder acknowledge her supremacy and be at her beck and call, and delegate her minions to give him orders!

In what manner should we be considering the rest of your ramblings serious, given your appalling shortcomings regarding reading comprehension?
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:10:05 AM 1932 Views
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It's more that Mat doesn't like to be bossed around by ANYONE - 09/12/2010 03:28:53 PM 713 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 05:36:51 PM 978 Views
Mat respects the women who give him a reason to respect them - 09/12/2010 06:48:53 PM 855 Views
Tylin raped Mat. *NM* - 09/12/2010 09:23:00 PM 1117 Views
Way off - 23/12/2010 12:03:03 PM 780 Views
Er... why should she go to such effort for Galad? - 09/12/2010 03:20:31 PM 923 Views
Pretty much. - 10/12/2010 09:59:07 PM 916 Views
Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 05:50:23 AM 1059 Views
Re: Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 07:26:04 AM 823 Views
Re: Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 07:27:06 AM 874 Views
Re: Very interesting. - 09/12/2010 08:15:02 AM 1460 Views
Well - 09/12/2010 06:10:23 AM 855 Views
hrmm - 09/12/2010 07:52:08 AM 852 Views
Elayne rantage - 09/12/2010 11:46:29 AM 839 Views
*raises hand* - 09/12/2010 09:41:47 PM 800 Views
Hm, I don't think so... - 09/12/2010 10:47:38 PM 840 Views
Oddly enough, I'd say that the WOMEN all seem to be cut from the same cloth - 09/12/2010 03:10:43 PM 836 Views
Besides - 09/12/2010 03:40:06 PM 773 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 09/12/2010 04:42:47 PM 886 Views
Re: Serious ramblings about WOT - 22/12/2010 07:01:17 AM 1063 Views
Excellent post - 22/12/2010 04:29:38 PM 697 Views
Hear, hear. *NM* - 23/12/2010 03:02:57 AM 363 Views
Just want to agree with you re: Egwene/Elayne. - 22/12/2010 03:40:39 PM 938 Views

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