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I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM
There are multiple indications that there is a significant gap between Nynaeve and the most powerful female channeler.

Alivia is twice referred to as being "considerably" and then "significantly" stronger than Nynaeve.

ON Linda's list on 13th depository - which I sometimes disagree with, but not in this case - she has about 3 levels above Nynaeve, backed by solid evidence.

And this is confirmed by the fact that Semirhage has at least three levels of female Forsaken above her as well - Graendal then Cyndane and then Lanfear.

The gap is real. And as we've said before - there are many factors influencing "who would win in a fight", some of them random.

But this gap does give a clear advantage to the stronger members of the Forsaken. Whether that advantage is driven home or not would of course depend on the particular set of circumstances.


I'm pretty sure there are a few levels above Nynaeve, but the relevance of it remains dubious. If Alivia is 5 points stronger than Nynaeve, and Reanne only has a strength of 15 then she will consider Alivia to have a third of her whole strength as a greater potential than Nynaeve. This will obviously look enormous to her, and she will describe Alivia as 'considerably stronger'. If Graendal measures this difference it will constitute about 5% of her own strength and she'll consider Nynaeve to be very close to her. It's all a matter of perspective.

You only need to have Nynaeve 90, Alivia 93, Cyndane 96, Lanfear 100 to see that it completely fulfills every quote in the series, and still gives Lanfear only 10% greater strength than Nynaeve, which could be akin to the difference between Rand and Rahvin, and no one believes that Rand would easily defeat Rahvin.

As I said, you can't offer real examples of a pecking order among the Forsaken, except for the sole example of Moghedien's genuine weakness and her avoidance of the other Chosen. They do not defer to each other's power and never have. Lanfear is as strong as possible, and has no lack of skill, and I've never seen one of the Chosen defer to her. Quite the contrary, and she's not obviously going to defeat the others if they stand up to her.

I remain of the opinion that any of the Chosen (except Moghedien) can openly and directly challenge the others and stand an excellent chance of winning, as long as they fight intelligently. True, I wouldn't easily bet on Mesaana defeating Demandred in an open duel, but I think he'd have to fight his ass off and would be hard-pressed to win.

You continuously ignore the one true fact about the Chosen... if any of them was truly weak they'd be dead. Its actively encouraged in the Shadow. Demandred wouldn't ally with two obviously weak allies. He obviously recognizes that their strength approaches his and he's keeping them at bay until he can go for them invidually. Mesaana spoke about overwhelming Semirhage in the most recent book. It's obvious that twelve of the thirteen Forsaken are so close in power and skill that they won't easily go for one another unless they really have a large advantage. Even they know that they could lose. If Ishamael or Lanfear was significantly more powerful than any of those twelve, they would have destroyed them. Clearly they can't. You speak about Semirhage hating Lanfear but not being able to kill her, but then why hasn't Lanfear gone for Semirhage? Lanfear knows it will be a huge duel.

I think Brandon's answers have clearly shown that Nynaeve is very close to the top tier in strength. That makes her close to Rand and the other Forsaken. With training she could challenge any of them. Moghedien said as much when she suggested Nynaeve should meet Rahvin unblocked one day.


I still don't think Moghedien is so far below the others (clearly she's the weakest) though. She'd be dead if she was. Lanfear would have gone after her as a potential threat in TAR, or any of the others for fear of assassination. Their contempt is at her cowardice and her lesser abilities with the OP. None of the view her as the kind of threat they view the others because they all know she's too chicken to attack openly.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2656 Views
Huh? - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1679 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1839 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1724 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1713 Views
- 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 1510 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1731 Views
Bullshit... - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 1456 Views
Unbiased view... - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1606 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 817 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 731 Views
Don't agree - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1546 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 1474 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 1612 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 1656 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 1579 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 1652 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1678 Views
here ya go they were all Forced - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 1462 Views
Nope... - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 1458 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1771 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1542 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1554 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 1486 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 1532 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 1442 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 1396 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 787 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1503 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 1468 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 1446 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 1550 Views
How... - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 1377 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1608 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 1594 Views
Got you now... - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 1422 Views
You're clearly delusional... - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 1522 Views
You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 1569 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1619 Views
Ok... - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 1357 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 1531 Views
Re: How... - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1549 Views
They're very close now... - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1592 Views
That is unfortunately not true... - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1515 Views
It is... - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 1349 Views
Re: It is... - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1592 Views
Yup... - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 1350 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1888 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 1568 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1744 Views
No - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1485 Views
CLAPS *NM* - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 806 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 1326 Views
Indeed - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 1334 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 1625 Views
I agree with you here - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 1422 Views
I don't think that's true.. - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 1368 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1682 Views
I think this is a no brainer - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1638 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 1457 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 1417 Views
Disagree... - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 1525 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 1420 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 1275 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 1531 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 1529 Views
Nynaeve's strength - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 1633 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 866 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1536 Views
Minor quibbles aside... - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1640 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 1442 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 1536 Views
shrugs - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 1540 Views
Re: shrugs - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 1467 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 1401 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 1357 Views
Thanks for clarifying - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 1361 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 1454 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 714 Views
Cool! *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 716 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 1293 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1775 Views
well... - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 1500 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 1365 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 838 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 1461 Views
Yup. - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 1434 Views
Trivial - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 1431 Views
Uhhh... no... - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 1340 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 1373 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 1447 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 1440 Views
wrong - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 1606 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 1462 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 1467 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 793 Views
Yes. *NM* - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 716 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 1238 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1689 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 1474 Views
And a 1000 years ago... - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 1347 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 1595 Views
Circular reasoning... - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 1558 Views
Agreed. - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 1462 Views
Agree. *NM* - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 790 Views
agreed *NM* - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 851 Views

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