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But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow Send a noteboard - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM
is not reflected in the Tower ... they are overrepresented by women of certain social classes which immediately eliminates a representative sample. I'm illustrating to you that the Tower has an inverted social strata ... proportionately there should be dramatically more women who come from squalid little villages or who's parents were extremely poor (as the majority of the population of the mainland is) ... in the Tower you see the % of women from higher social status than in the general population ... thus invalidating the possibility that it is a truly representative sample. It's closer to a reversed social strata than a true one.

3 Queens/Princesses (Kiruna, Moiraine, Elayne), Morgase (High Seat and later Queen), Elaida was a minor noble, there was one of the Kin that was a Noble as well, Daigain was a minor noble ... I'm sure if I dug into the text I could find several more without too much work. Leane and Beonin were both from families of great means as was Sieane.

Then let's talk about the fact that even women like Siuan who grew up in a city skew things further .... the VAST majority of the population lives outside of cities in this society ... not so with AS ... especially since the rural folk have such a negative view of AS.

Oh and we've got Amadicia, who just kills any poor woman who can channel and Tear where Channeling is anathema enough to stem the number of women (sparkers aside) from that nation that would even consider going to TV to train ... if she failed she would probably never be welcome home.

too many exclusions to use the Tower as anything even coming close to "representative". A research study would laugh.

Point is, Moiraine et al could easily be around a 50 on the Bell Curve, there are just a TON of women out there that the Tower hasn't recruited and thus the Tower sample is skewing the results of a Bell Curve distribution. And note how many WF and WO we see that are in the general range of Sheriam or higher strength ... odds are these societies find and train only the Sparkers or we'd be seeing a LOT more WF and WO in general ... if 400 WO was way too many for the Shaido to have in the entire clan of at least 100k people then we know they are not grabbing up latent women, or they'd have like 5000 WO.

If Egwene's plans move forward for the next few hundred years then the Tower will likely start becoming a true sample.


The fact that the Tower selection is skewed from a social perspective in no way means that it is skewed from a strength perspective. There is no proven connection between the two.

The Wise one distribution represents every single sparker out there, most likely, with no social bias, and yet Amys is among the strongest Wise Ones we have been shown.

The only reason why you THINK that there are all these strong women out there, despite no bias that exists against the selection of strong women into the Tower, is that you NEED it to be true to fit your Bell Curve.

But the evidence totally contradicts it.
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Proof that Asmodean's effective One Power strength is greater than Moghedien's... Shannow - 03/02/2011 03:22:42 PM 2703 Views
Huh? fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 04:08:29 PM 1727 Views
Why do you deliberately misquote the text? Shannow - 03/02/2011 04:12:50 PM 1884 Views
You're deliberately being obtuse... as usual... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:07:09 PM 1776 Views
Right. So Egwene can shield someone of Egwene's own strength, plus Elayne, AND weave a dozen flows.. Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:26:27 PM 1780 Views
fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:46:40 PM 1554 Views
No. Egwene is very close to her full potential at the time... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:44:20 PM 1782 Views
Bullshit... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:39:42 AM 1493 Views
Unbiased view... Nargs - 04/02/2011 01:46:40 AM 1651 Views
The WoT Board in a nutshell. *NM* Ghavrel - 04/02/2011 02:34:32 AM 835 Views
Yeah, thats unbiased... *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:23:17 PM 749 Views
Don't agree Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:30:02 AM 1596 Views
Fair comment, but my question then is: Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:26:25 AM 1519 Views
I think the WO and Moiraine also Force Egwene as they know what's coming and need her darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 03:55:46 PM 1653 Views
It is specifically stated that Egwene was forced by the rigours of the damane training... Shannow - 04/02/2011 05:15:20 PM 1709 Views
Egwene has been continually forced... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:02:08 PM 1640 Views
The direct quotes contradict you... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:23:03 PM 1710 Views
actually the quote substantiates that Egwene is only slightly stronger than Moiraine in TSR darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:51:10 PM 1732 Views
here ya go they were all Forced darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 07:59:40 PM 1519 Views
Nope... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:23:00 PM 1499 Views
I think you may have misused the term - RJ meant 'effective' to mean something a bit different. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 04:40:41 PM 1839 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Shannow - 03/02/2011 05:30:15 PM 1584 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Master Ablar - 03/02/2011 05:45:30 PM 1601 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:31:34 PM 1521 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:06:50 PM 1576 Views
Re: I think you are mistaking what RJ meant effective to mean. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:17:25 PM 1481 Views
We still don't know who is effectively stronger, and not sure if Asmo was equal to Rand by the end. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 06:58:14 PM 1470 Views
See my post above, I would say Asmo is Weaker than Moggy... *NM* Kieran - 03/02/2011 07:10:07 PM 803 Views
I'm not certain either way. I think it all depends on the terms being used. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 03/02/2011 07:22:01 PM 1539 Views
Effective strength means who can make the bigger fireball, the stronger shield, the thicker balefire Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:42:17 PM 1522 Views
I still hold to the point that your analogy is false. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:20:05 PM 1494 Views
My impression of your view, in general, is that... Shannow - 03/02/2011 07:33:37 PM 1607 Views
How... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:15:34 PM 1429 Views
If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... Shannow - 03/02/2011 10:36:46 PM 1646 Views
Re: If Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did to them, then I rest my case... fionwe1987 - 03/02/2011 10:50:57 PM 1645 Views
Got you now... Shannow - 03/02/2011 11:32:49 PM 1459 Views
You're clearly delusional... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 12:59:26 AM 1579 Views
You sound ridiculous Nargs - 04/02/2011 02:05:18 AM 1625 Views
Re: You sound ridiculous Kieran - 04/02/2011 02:23:50 AM 1671 Views
Ok... Nargs - 04/02/2011 04:13:34 PM 1404 Views
Elayne is not stronger than most AS at this point in the books darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:14:41 PM 1579 Views
Where on earth does it say Nynaeve could do to Egwene and Elayne what Rand did? darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:06:48 PM 1558 Views
Re: How... Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:34:21 AM 1591 Views
They're very close now... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:46:48 PM 1640 Views
That is unfortunately not true... Shannow - 04/02/2011 06:02:34 PM 1556 Views
It is... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 06:05:05 PM 1391 Views
Re: It is... Sidious - 04/02/2011 06:31:32 PM 1630 Views
Yup... fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:20:33 PM 1380 Views
Semirhage hated Lanfear, but dared not act against her strength... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:29:24 PM 1943 Views
yet Graendal showed a lot of respect for Semirhage ... even assumed she was the most darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:53:05 PM 1624 Views
Graendal on Semirhage and Demandred... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:23:50 PM 1790 Views
No Sidious - 04/02/2011 11:10:00 PM 1528 Views
CLAPS *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:15:21 AM 822 Views
We will just have to disagree on this one... Shannow - 05/02/2011 06:57:36 AM 1365 Views
Indeed Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:38:10 AM 1367 Views
I agree with you ... especially abou the perpective issue darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:00:58 PM 1677 Views
I agree with you here darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:19:35 PM 1478 Views
I don't think that's true.. fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 08:21:38 PM 1415 Views
the evidence is that Aginor burnt out trying to channel the Eye and Rand didn't darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:23:50 PM 1493 Views
Considering that Asmodean and Rand were using a sa'angreal... ˥ɐ ʎpu∀ɹ - 04/02/2011 04:55:03 AM 1726 Views
I think this is a no brainer Sidious - 04/02/2011 08:22:00 AM 1684 Views
The nice fact which is proven is the magnitude of the gap between Moghedien and Semirhage... Shannow - 04/02/2011 11:32:00 AM 1516 Views
Nynaeve could be at 90% or 80% when she faced Moghedien we have no way of measuring that darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:42:03 PM 1460 Views
Disagree... Shannow - 04/02/2011 08:51:55 PM 1584 Views
spin it all you like... I'm tired of this arument and your creative quoting. darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:56:14 PM 1473 Views
The creative quoter is Fionwe, not me. You quote correctly, but your interpretations are way off... Shannow - 04/02/2011 09:05:43 PM 1311 Views
Nynaeve has grown in strength, but she started nearly as strong as Moiraine! darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 05:35:05 AM 1577 Views
Starting out at Moiraine's strength meant starting out at barely 30% of her full potential... Shannow - 05/02/2011 07:05:46 AM 1598 Views
Nynaeve's strength Sidious - 05/02/2011 07:49:07 AM 1688 Views
Agree, Egwene has never been as strong as Nynaeve at any stage. *NM* darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:03:25 PM 897 Views
I disagree that Moiraine is 30% of Nynaeve. Much closer to 50% of Nynaeve. EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:02:06 PM 1569 Views
Minor quibbles aside... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 04:05:30 PM 1691 Views
Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 04:30:00 PM 1497 Views
Re: Agreed, the exact numbers are arbitrary, I place Egwene a tad higher than you ... EDIT fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 06:09:41 PM 1587 Views
shrugs darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 06:46:02 PM 1582 Views
Re: shrugs fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 08:03:37 PM 1530 Views
I don't recall the Merise quote you are refering too and they have not been together in the series darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 09:20:56 PM 1455 Views
I'm sorry, I meant the glossary entry... fionwe1987 - 05/02/2011 10:29:46 PM 1405 Views
Thanks for clarifying darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 11:12:19 PM 1413 Views
Re: Thanks for clarifying fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 12:42:51 AM 1508 Views
fair enough ... I can agree to Cadsuane and Bode both being 70 with Egwene and co at 80 *NM* darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:29:49 AM 733 Views
Cool! *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:52 PM 729 Views
Sorry, but here your entire Bell Curve goes up in smoke... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:13:15 PM 1325 Views
In fact, Moiraine is even STRONGER than I postulated in the above post... Shannow - 06/02/2011 01:22:11 PM 1820 Views
well... Sidious - 06/02/2011 02:11:02 PM 1545 Views
Only a separate Bell Curve for the Age of Legends - when the average strength was higher - will work Shannow - 06/02/2011 03:29:49 PM 1402 Views
Or, you know, the Aes Sedai aren't a representative sample... *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:19:22 PM 853 Views
I don't think Strength was higher in the AOL I think there were just more channelers darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 04:50:42 PM 1512 Views
Yup. fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 05:30:54 PM 1480 Views
Trivial darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:10:55 PM 1486 Views
Uhhh... no... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 04:18:19 PM 1389 Views
Read these facts slowly, maybe you will grasp the implication then... Shannow - 06/02/2011 04:41:02 PM 1411 Views
you are missing the fact that women like Sharina have no interest in the Tower darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 05:05:10 PM 1480 Views
You equate random exclusions with the deliberate block exclusion of 37.5% weakest women... Shannow - 06/02/2011 05:41:47 PM 1484 Views
wrong darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:08:20 PM 1659 Views
That is weak logic in the extreme... Shannow - 06/02/2011 06:16:46 PM 1517 Views
what I'm saying is that a representative sample of the entire population darius_sedai - 06/02/2011 06:40:51 PM 1520 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:47:59 PM 807 Views
Yes. *NM* fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:48:00 PM 738 Views
But you don't prove that the undiscovered women are stronger. They may well be weaker... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:26:27 PM 1278 Views
Amys is far from the strongest WO! fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:37:14 PM 1740 Views
Explain the 1000 women they found in Murandy then... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:26:46 PM 1524 Views
And a 1000 years ago... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:33:29 PM 1390 Views
The only implication I grasped is that you don't grasp math... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 06:21:12 PM 1650 Views
Circular reasoning... Shannow - 06/02/2011 07:03:53 PM 1611 Views
No, reasoning based on facts and what RJ said, both of which you ignore... fionwe1987 - 06/02/2011 07:34:21 PM 1752 Views
If you're going to ignore direct quotes, then we may as well stop right now... Shannow - 06/02/2011 08:42:40 PM 1493 Views
Agreed. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 04/02/2011 04:32:05 PM 1507 Views
Agree. *NM* fionwe1987 - 04/02/2011 05:49:05 PM 808 Views
agreed *NM* darius_sedai - 04/02/2011 08:27:22 PM 870 Views
off tangent question: Has Nynaeve yet to reach full potential or did she already after being ... Bookwyrm - 04/02/2011 08:39:29 PM 1389 Views
I think the general concensus is that after the CK she was forced to her full potential darius_sedai - 05/02/2011 03:44:29 PM 1465 Views
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