Active Users:309 Time:29/04/2024 04:01:00 PM
Egwenes problem is her knack for seeing the error of her ways without ever LEARNING it. Joel Send a noteboard - 13/05/2012 04:57:27 AM
Egwene is Latra Posae to Rands LTT, to such an extent we needed an explicit authors statement to eliminate the theory she is Latra Reborn. Different person then, but a very similar role; the prospect of either of them linking with Rand then passing control to him so he could cleanse saidin is inconceivable. Nynaeve does self-sacrifice very well; Egwene is better with martyrdom. That makes each of them good parallels to Rand, but to different aspects of his character. It certainly does not say much for Egwene that she is more like pre- and Nynaeve more like post-epiphany Rand.

Incidentally, I not only do not recall any authors statement Egwene will not die, and still consider it somewhat likely she will. ;)

Egwene is not "more like Rand pre-epiphany" and Nynaeve more like Rsnd post-epiphany. Egwene went through her own version of the epiphany in TGS, you simply appear to have missed that.

No, I caught it, but also recall all the other occasions where Egwene recognized a character flaw, realized she must remedy it, then essentially decided that realization WAS the remedy. Kind of like people who realize they are awful SOBs, answer an altar call that declares them "born again," and think that gives them a blank check to resume being awful SOBs. To continue the analogy, it is "go, and sin no more," not "go, and sin no less." Given how many times Egwene has missed THAT lesson, I do not expect her latest epiphany to change her any more than the many previous ones. The only surprise so far is that she does not count switching places with Bode at the last minute a success, on the grounds it put her in the Tar Valon dungeon from which she saved the Tower and assumed the stole.

Seanchan assassins nearly killing her in her bed because she was not as knowledgable as she thought, being spared only by Gawyns repeated disobedience of her express orders and the fact it nearly killed HIM, too, ought to be enough to teach Egwene the importance of cooperating with rather than merely manipulating others. She certainly talks like it afterward, but I have often seen her pay lip service to valuable lessons then immediately resume ignoring them.

The Aiel taught her the value of humility and Siuan the Law of Unintended Consequences, both of which she immediately acknowledged as greatly expanding her wisdom and never again observed, despite citing them often. As much as she patted herself on the back for her stoically humble submission to Elaida abuse, it was more the pride of a martyr complex (which is what so provoked both Elaida and Silviana.) There was very little "humility" in continually declaring herself Amyrlin each time someone said otherwise (let alone telling Mesaana, essentially, "you are merely a Forsaken; I am the Amyrlin!") Likewise, the Law of Unintended Consequences was on full display when three Seanchan assassins tried to murder her in her bed while she was busy hunting Mesaana, a possibility she not only did not, but COULD not, consider, because she had already decided her would-be assassins were in Mesaanas employ. That really should not have made any difference (why fight a mortal duel with someone in Tel'aran'rhiod when you need only keep them busy there while a lackey smothers their sleeping body with a pillow,) but Egwene had decided what reality was and so never imagined it could be otherwise. I do not expect her to be any wiser after that incident than before it, only to correctly recognize what she did wrong then incorrectly continue doing it, just as she always does.

Egwene is already more like the role of Latra Posae post-Sealing, who stepped up as LTT's successor, ended divisions and kept what was left together against the Shadow (becoming the Shadar Nor) until the Breaking put an end to the efforts. She needs to be that leader even more, and much sooner than LPD. Rand is leaving her that place, she has to make the choice to take it, and not turn this into a debate over the issue of who should make the Champion's decisions. It's not contesting the wisdom of Rand's decision to break the seals right away that represents a threat to the Light, it's if Egwene falls into a "let's do nothing until we find a better way to handle this" logic that turned Latra into a force necessary for balance into one that simply blocked everything. Rand currently has no plan to seal the Bore, it may not be so wise to break the seals until he has one. He's rushing into things, pressured by the fact waiting too long the last time brought the Light to the breaking point, entrenched divisions, and left it very few options, all flawed. Rand and Egwene need to find the middleground. Rand is right the Light needs to take the initiative, Egwene is right to want to hear of his plans before she even considers he may be right to break the seals now. It won't sit well with Egwene and the rulers if Rand admits he still has no plan. Egwene just has to avoid making LPD's mistake of waiting for a "better plan" and stick to that while the world collapses, the Shadow almost wins and she still hesitated to go forward. Thankfully for the Light, Egwene as leader has very little of that aspect of Latra Posae, but she leads a force (the WT) who does have a lot of it ingrained in its culture, and who might advice Egwene to take the "better safe than sorry until we're just sorrry and there's no hope left for safety" direction. Forcing LTT to wait by blocking his path wasn't risk free and was very costly to the Light in the WOS (may well have cost them the AOL civilization), no more than his plan was risk free. Waiting too long is what needs to be avoided - at some point you just have to make a leap of faith, or you let the Shadow win by attrition.

Do we know anything at all about Latra post-Sealing? Everything I have read about her is PRE-Sealing, continuing to rely exclusively on the Choedan Kal and insisting all other female channelers do the same. As bad as the Breaking was, had she convinced LTT and the men of that it would have been worse, since all the places with access keys had already fallen to the Shadow; even a desperate destructive hope is better than none. My impression (FWIW) is that Latras role was no more or less than withholding the women from the Hundred Companions so that saidar would not be tainted along with saidin; in light of her political role at the time, the smart money is on her being killed in a showdown with a mad male channeler shortly after the Bore was resealed.

As for Egwene as heir to Latras role, she has already rather glaringly committed herself both to dismissing Rands plan out of hand as well as doing nothing and hoping the dilemma of resealing the Bore resolves itself. She is not assembling the world leaders to hear Rand out and decide whether to accept his plan, but to present a show of force to coerce him into renouncing it (hence she wants every man who can hold a spear at her back.) Lews Therins plan was certainly not risk free, but NO plan was risk free when the Shadow was at the brink of total victory, so LTT made a desperate high stakes gamble from necessity (which is often the hallmark of true leadership.) From the position the Light held at the time, a very costly stalemate (as LTT achieved) was an outstanding success, and would be again. It was far better than hiding under the bed trying to think up a risk free solution that did not exist, until the Shadow resolved the matter permanently and unpleasantly (the best to be said about that choice is that the delay would have been brief.) In that respect, Egwenes approach is not even as good as Latras, because Latra at least HAD an alternate solution (though not one with any chance of success, but she made not have known all the Choedan Kal access keys had been lost.) Egwenes "solution" is no more than waiting until the Dark One destroys the last of the Seals himself and moots all her objections to Rands plan.

The other thing Rand has also announced to a few lately is that he intends to focus on being the champion, meaning he can't combine LTT's political role as leader of the Light because he was the First Among the Servants, LTT's military role as the Light's General and come up with the best plan to seal the Bore. The military roles Rand no doubt intends to leave to Mat and others (this could even include rulers and their generals, like Elayne who rules the biggest national army and who is Green Ajah - and who might even soon recuperate Gareth Bryne to lead Andor's armies alonside Birgitte (strategist vs. field command) as his WT role will be superceded soon by the Captain-General of the Green Ajah and his student Gawyn is a natural leader - if not the wisest one in his Youngling days - who could possibly lead the warders and non-channelling forces of TV, alonside Galad and the WC). Siuan has been pushed aside politically, placing her with Bryne in the "military entourage" including Mat/Elayne entourage would be fun. Egwene will own the political role, she will have to let Nyaneve be her envoy with Rand. I greatly suspect she will pick Elayne to be her her liaison with Mat and the État-major and Adelorna near her as her political advisor/commander in chief. Elayne is a very strong Green, but she's pregnant and will be confined to behind the lines.

Bryne will stay beside the woman who holds his Bond and, even if she decides Egwene no longer needs or can benefit from her experienced advice, Siuan is unlikely to leave the Tower on the eave of war with the Shadow. If she does, it will almost certainly be as part of a Tar Valon assault force, not to return a general Elayne does not need. She has the two most experienced generals in Randland (Birgitte and Mat) at her right hand, so Bryne would be superfluous even if interested (which he very much is not.) Most likely, Elayne will be the political and Mat the martial leaders of a Westlands coalition centered around Andor (which now includes Ghaeldan and Cairhien, with strong ties to the Saldean throne and thus all the Borderlands through Faile,) particularly since Mat is also the means of bringing the Seanchans soldiers and channelers to the fight (depending on how Rands appointment with the Crystal Throne goes.)

In his political role, Rand will leave to Egwene for the channelers (with Logain in an important role but likely as a kind of Amyrlin-in-the-field keeping the male-female AS working together, not at Egwene's side as political leader as he totally lacks experience, not to mention his utter lack of diplomatic finesse. He's a charismatic field leader, not a politician. His conflict with Rand and his decisions seems to naturally throw him on Egwene's side, and he's learned to work with AS now), and I would predict, it's Perrin who'll rise as the central figure among the non-channeling rulers. Egwene and Perrin work well together, and their personalities and styles balance each other very well. Perrin has always been the EF boy Egwene respects most, the one of the trio she has the least conflicts with (and vice versa). Mat and Elayne have learned to work together, Mat and Rand can. Mat and Egwene can't, Mat and Nynaeve can't. Elayne and Nynaeve can, Elayne and Egwene not so much, but Elayne and Perrin now works. Perrin and Rand can work together well even if Egwene+Perrin works better still, Egwene and Rand not so well. Egwene and Perrin is a winning match. Mat and Elayne is a winning match, Nynaeve and Rand is a winning match. All the signs point to Moiraine and Rand becoming a winning match, but Nynaeve and Moiraine is hardly one and they'll have work to do. Aviendha and Nynaeve don't work so well even if they don't clash too much either, Aviendha and Elayne, Aviendha and Egwene work. Aviendha and Rand work better than it used to. There are great pairings, and there's always one in each pair able to serve as "bridge" to the other pairs.

Again, I expect the political role to largely be Elaynes; except for Murandy, Tear and Illian, she rules or is tied to the rulers of every nation west of the Mountains of Mist, and has far more training for it than any other major character save Tuon (who will be responsible for the Seanchan expedition and conquests.) In the long run, post-TG, the political leadership should look much the same, with the addition of whoever is Amyrlin. To the extent it matters, I still expect that to be Logain rather than Egwene, who, as minor noble in Ghaeldan, actually DID gain political experience. As previously noted, the best example of a charater at lofty political heights without the necessary experience is probably daughter of a backwoods village mayor.

Rand - Egwene conflict: potential bridges: Aviendha, Perrin, Moiraine.

Egwene - Elayne conflict: potential bridges: Aviendha, Perrin, Nynaeve, Gawyn eventually

Egwene - Mat conflict: bridges would incl. Elayne, Perrin

Nynaeve - Moiraine conflict: Rand, Lan

Etc.

I get the dynamics, and they are significant; it may fall to Elayne and Perrin to make Egwene see who is being mule-headed at Merrilor. Politically, however, her reasoning and demeanor far better suit her to an auxillary role whose chief value lies in lending Tar Valons aura of legitimacy (and diplomatic corps) to the coalition-building efforts of a far more experienced politician like Elayne. With the Tower socially and literally in pieces (and another much larger Seanchan assault on it imminent) Egwenes hands are quite full with preserving it. In dealing with Rand, less is more where Egwene is concerned, as Merrilor will probably demonstrate in her discovery the unified front she seeks AGAINST the Dragon Reborn is far less unified than she hopes and believes. Most likely, her role will be assembling the Westland rulers and armies only to see someone else take charge of them, by their own request.

That is even if I assume she is not turned and/or killed due to her own arrogance and independence first.
Honorbound and honored to be Bonded to Mahtaliel Sedai
Last First in wotmania Chat
Slightly better than chocolate.

Love still can't be coerced.
Please Don't Eat the Newbies!

LoL. Be well, RAFOlk.
Reply to message
The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 03:52:14 PM 4845 Views
It's pretty damn cool. - 03/05/2012 03:59:36 PM 2491 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:08:09 PM 2628 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 04:17:19 PM 2597 Views
the pit of doom is hot - 12/06/2012 01:57:18 AM 2104 Views
I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 03/05/2012 04:26:42 PM 2654 Views
yes. I sincerely doubt she has that kind of competency - 03/05/2012 05:52:22 PM 2522 Views
Re: I think I like Callandor from TDR better.. - 04/05/2012 11:10:49 AM 2364 Views
Heh - Cannoli-baiting *NM* - 04/05/2012 04:46:51 PM 1911 Views
*NM* - 05/05/2012 09:04:15 PM 1829 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 05:06:19 PM 2271 Views
I really like it - 03/05/2012 05:54:51 PM 2549 Views
The sword grip is not akward or wrong - 03/05/2012 06:20:54 PM 2290 Views
something like this? - 03/05/2012 06:46:59 PM 2841 Views
Its the sword thats not a sword (its a night light!) - 04/05/2012 04:47:27 PM 2292 Views
oh no fair enough! like i said, I just think it looks a little awkward. - 04/05/2012 10:04:21 PM 2218 Views
Me, too! - 12/05/2012 01:18:06 AM 2344 Views
Well... - 03/05/2012 06:09:51 PM 2631 Views
I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:24:13 PM 2325 Views
Pretty sure it's Mo and Nyn - 03/05/2012 06:40:49 PM 2385 Views
Yeah... - 03/05/2012 07:55:32 PM 2301 Views
when did Nynaeve cut her hair? - 08/05/2012 07:33:04 PM 3791 Views
It was burned off during her testing for the shawl. - 12/06/2012 02:53:43 AM 3029 Views
Egwene is a distinct possibility... - 03/05/2012 11:37:48 PM 2434 Views
She is - 04/05/2012 12:15:21 AM 2532 Views
I don't know... - 04/05/2012 12:25:53 AM 2264 Views
Re: I don't know... - 04/05/2012 02:47:02 AM 2409 Views
I'm not disagreeing with most of that... - 08/05/2012 02:58:53 AM 2134 Views
"You expect me to wise up?" "No, Egwene, I expect you to DIE!" - 11/05/2012 01:36:09 AM 2359 Views
What books have you been reading? - 11/05/2012 01:57:31 AM 2374 Views
I agree - 11/05/2012 02:51:38 PM 2478 Views
The other quotes you requested, as promised. - 13/05/2012 03:29:41 AM 2450 Views
You misinterpreting quotes is hardly worth requoting... - 13/05/2012 11:36:21 AM 2141 Views
Agreed - 13/05/2012 03:39:12 PM 2246 Views
Exactly... - 13/05/2012 05:53:17 PM 2225 Views
Never said she was evil, just wrong. Horribly and tragically wrong. - 14/05/2012 02:34:27 AM 2277 Views
- 14/05/2012 04:23:21 AM 2176 Views
Re- - 21/05/2012 02:43:49 AM 2647 Views
Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 02:21:42 AM 2254 Views
Then she wouldn't be a "protagonist" - 14/05/2012 04:38:34 AM 2211 Views
Again, I never said she is or will become evil. - 21/05/2012 03:03:32 AM 2352 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 14/05/2012 08:32:50 AM 2325 Views
Re: Principle protagonists can still experience epic falls. - 21/05/2012 03:28:48 AM 2150 Views
For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 01:58:26 AM 2369 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 03:51:31 AM 2553 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 14/05/2012 06:41:32 AM 2319 Views
Yeah... - 14/05/2012 07:47:16 AM 2321 Views
Re: Yeah... - 14/05/2012 04:40:49 PM 2383 Views
Re: For the most part, very little interpretation was required. - 21/05/2012 06:21:48 AM 2298 Views
Look at their foreheads - 16/05/2012 08:38:51 AM 2380 Views
Re: I think it is EG and Nyn - 03/05/2012 07:38:36 PM 2340 Views
I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 09:05:58 PM 2187 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 03/05/2012 11:28:42 PM 2328 Views
Idea - 04/05/2012 10:11:05 AM 2320 Views
Re: Idea - 04/05/2012 12:09:17 PM 2296 Views
Or.... - 04/05/2012 12:19:16 PM 2166 Views
This would explain the hidden hand - 04/05/2012 08:54:00 PM 2331 Views
That's a good point. - 04/05/2012 08:59:41 PM 2455 Views
Nah... - 07/05/2012 01:56:13 PM 2387 Views
Can you draw a blade - 08/05/2012 06:00:28 AM 2312 Views
It depens on the construction of the scabbard - 10/05/2012 01:36:30 PM 2233 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 02:49:51 PM 1392 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 04/05/2012 07:42:12 PM 2425 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 08:02:26 PM 2246 Views
Re: I vote for Nynaeve and Moiraine too - 07/05/2012 09:32:45 PM 2459 Views
Thanks! *NM* - 13/05/2012 10:56:06 AM 2215 Views
I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing. - 11/05/2012 01:35:34 PM 2333 Views
Re: I actually found the champion/politician split between parallels very convincing. - 11/05/2012 04:06:50 PM 2109 Views
Egwene-Mat... - 11/05/2012 09:05:07 PM 2197 Views
Re: Egwene-Mat... - 12/05/2012 05:31:29 AM 2546 Views
Egwenes problem is her knack for seeing the error of her ways without ever LEARNING it. - 13/05/2012 04:57:27 AM 2495 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:25:37 PM 2187 Views
Re: The cover for A Memory of Light is revealed. - 03/05/2012 07:36:09 PM 2295 Views
It's his left hand Rand lost *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:00:01 PM 1855 Views
Thanks for the imput! *NM* - 03/05/2012 08:24:59 PM 2224 Views
I does not look like Nynaeve and Moiraine - 03/05/2012 11:39:01 PM 2268 Views
Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:44:50 PM 2403 Views
Re: Nynaeve has cut her braid and has her hair shoulder length in TOM.... - 03/05/2012 11:51:02 PM 3242 Views
Am I the only one who sees the red dot in her forehead? *NM* - 09/05/2012 08:36:53 PM 1880 Views
looks *$%$%*@ great *NM* - 04/05/2012 02:47:00 AM 1965 Views
i quite like it! as far as the women go... - 04/05/2012 06:38:10 PM 2389 Views
No Maidens of the Spear - 05/05/2012 05:09:27 PM 2403 Views
Re: No Maidens of the Spear - 07/05/2012 02:02:36 PM 2497 Views
nynaeve with no braid?.... are we sure its not egwene? or did no one tell him the hairstyles? *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:48:49 PM 1771 Views
Nyn cut her braid off. *NM* - 08/05/2012 06:55:02 PM 2007 Views
I thought it was burned off during her test for Aes Sedaihood. *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:25:51 PM 847 Views
I don't remember this at all *NM* - 08/05/2012 07:51:04 PM 1998 Views
Regarding the identities of the women on the back: - 09/05/2012 08:52:47 PM 2472 Views
What the hell is on the ground close to the bottom edge of the picture? *NM* - 10/05/2012 05:55:07 AM 1936 Views
A misplaced logo? *NM* - 10/05/2012 08:24:52 AM 1885 Views
Possibly one of the Seals? - 11/05/2012 01:42:13 AM 2292 Views
agreed - 10/05/2012 07:16:39 AM 2379 Views
Partially concur - 10/05/2012 01:17:31 PM 2191 Views
She's in the Pit of F*ing Doom. Ben Stein would be excited *NM* - 12/05/2012 04:22:44 AM 826 Views
i agree with the big about how Moiraine should be depicted - 12/05/2012 11:04:53 PM 1216 Views
you can see a second weapon in Rand's belt too - 13/05/2012 08:51:34 PM 1187 Views
That looks pretty cool, better than most of the other WoT covers - 26/06/2012 07:37:29 AM 1022 Views

Reply to Message