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No argument from me on most of this darius_sedai Send a noteboard - 04/12/2012 04:36:28 PM
He clearly worries that one day Rina will come after him. Most AS seem to at least treat their Warders as a friend if not more. Clearly some of them are couples


You don't "tame" people, you tame wild animals. That attitude, in and of itself, is a problem.

I agree that many of the Aes Sedai/Warder pairs we see are, at the very least, friends, but I really wonder how much of the Warders' attitudes (the reverence they show to the bond and the complete submission to the bondholder, in most cases) is an effect of the bond itself. There are still things we don't know about the bond, benefits the AS get from it, that much has been made clear in the glossaries.

But yes, I do see the bond as a leash. The bondholder has all the power. Worse, RJ seemed to think it "cool" that all men are fine with being dominated and treated like trained dogs as long as they get to feel all big and strong from it (that scene with Siuan and Gareth made me ill - here is a man who is famous for his supposed greatness and he gets off on being owned like a thing as long as he gets big muscles and can go all day long without tiring? Really?? If all men are that simple and mindless, it's time for me to turn asexual or lesbian).

There were several things in the series with the bond that turned my stomach, and because of those things I will never like the bond as it is:

1. Alanna soul raping Rand and seeing nothing wrong with it. Worse, no AS who heard of it really had a problem with it, even when they know it's akin to rape. That, to me, speaks volumes about how AS view men and their power to enslave them.

2. Moiraine handing Lan over to Myrelle like he was some sort of possession to be passed around. Moiraine has done a number of things which I found detestable, and this was one of them. I get that she wanted to "save" him, and can understand that, but if she had any respect or compassion for the man at all, she'd have told him her intentions to use Myrelle as a step in getting him to Nynaeve. He'd have argued (he's a dolt, in many ways) but at least he would not have felt like she had no respect for him before she died. And, at least, he'd have had some *hope*. But no, she saw fit to crap all over him because she was jealous of his feelings for Nynaeve.

3. And this was the final nail in the proverbial coffin for me where the bond is concerned: the way Merise treats Narishma. If they want to play S&M games behind closed doors - and he enjoys being humiliated and beaten for fun - then, fine, go for it. But the way she treats him in public is downright detestable. When she snapped her fingers and sent him scurrying to the corner like some sort of juvenile delinquent (how dare he try to act like he's anything other than subhuman, after all!), I wanted someone to rip out her spleen and feed it to her piece by tiny piece. I saw everyone tout how awesome he was for standing up in the rebel hall, but all I saw was a puppy yapping and his leash holder allowing it for the time being, with the full intent of beating him senseless once they were alone.

I've seen people contemplating that he will be the one to lead the Asha'man...the thought makes me want to retch. Any man who would follow that...spineless, ball-less, cowardly sack of crap, knowing that he can't so much as blink unless his "owner" allows it (and you can't call it anything else when he can't even accept a piece of pie unless it comes from her "hand";)...isn't worthy of being anything other than what Narishman is - a piece of mindless property. A slave. She doesn't respect him, and never will. And, honestly, when I look at all the other AS/Warder relationships, I see much the same, if to a lesser extent. Some AS may care for their Warders, and they may ask for an opinion on occasion, but they basically treat them like indulgent owners who are patting their pets on the head so they know they have done well. The whole thing nauseates me.



But it boils down to the AS and how they choose to use the Bond. Not really the Bond itself. It's like the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people" ...

Although I will say RJ did make a point of noting how wrong what Alanna and Moiraine/Myrelle did was and that they would likely be punished if it came to light that they had done this. I think he realized and meant for this to be seen as a horrid act.
Domani Drag Queen in the White Tower ... Aran'gar watch out!
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Tor's Daily Memories of Light - 27/11/2012 10:21:35 PM 2934 Views
It had been useful at Maradon... - 27/11/2012 10:22:00 PM 905 Views
...time your father and you visited Shara? - 27/11/2012 10:22:36 PM 1186 Views
Re: ...time your father and you visited Shara? - 27/11/2012 11:14:00 PM 1107 Views
Re: ...time your father and you visited Shara? - 27/11/2012 11:39:39 PM 993 Views
Re: ...time your father and you visited Shara? - 28/11/2012 01:07:22 AM 856 Views
The whole idea of "Farstrider's son" sounds silly, if you ask me - 28/11/2012 03:23:11 AM 1268 Views
I think this is Egwene... - 28/11/2012 06:38:02 AM 813 Views
Re: I think this is Egwene... - 28/11/2012 03:54:09 PM 1601 Views
well isn't wild speculation part of the reason for a discussion forum? - 28/11/2012 04:00:35 PM 731 Views
could be a mocking quote - 28/11/2012 04:41:36 PM 924 Views
Possibly to the Sea Folk *NM* - 28/11/2012 04:45:30 PM 475 Views
Day 3 ... marriage is not so bad ... - 28/11/2012 05:18:05 PM 1121 Views
Sounds more like Mat than Thom to me. - 28/11/2012 06:04:36 PM 951 Views
Re: Sounds more like Mat than Thom to me. - 28/11/2012 06:35:35 PM 979 Views
Re: Day 3 ... marriage is not so bad ... - 28/11/2012 06:31:56 PM 836 Views
Re: Day 3 ... marriage is not so bad ... - 28/11/2012 06:43:32 PM 840 Views
that is a good observation and explains the tone of the sentence *NM* - 28/11/2012 07:43:06 PM 462 Views
I like it. *NM* - 28/11/2012 08:24:58 PM 461 Views
That makes me feel better. - 29/11/2012 02:59:15 PM 788 Views
Berelain or an Aiel - 29/11/2012 06:01:48 AM 774 Views
Day#3 This one sounds like something Loial would tell to Perrin - 28/11/2012 07:34:09 PM 946 Views
Day #4: "Pass his bond to me." --- Moraine to Alanna? *NM* - 29/11/2012 05:22:01 PM 534 Views
Re: Day #4: "Pass his bond to me." --- Moraine to Alanna? - 29/11/2012 05:55:22 PM 789 Views
No, I think it is Egwene demanding it from Alanna, or Elayne... - 29/11/2012 06:27:59 PM 903 Views
Egwene to Alanna, IMO. - 29/11/2012 07:00:01 PM 1083 Views
Highly doubtful... - 29/11/2012 07:14:33 PM 903 Views
Regarding Rand "tracking her actions", she can mask the bond to take care of that. *NM* - 29/11/2012 07:45:03 PM 583 Views
That masking works both ways... *NM* - 29/11/2012 07:49:41 PM 467 Views
Does it? Have we seen a Warder who can mask the bond from his owner? - 29/11/2012 07:54:17 PM 720 Views
Most warders aren't channelers... Min can't mask and she is the bonder in the situation and then - 29/11/2012 08:05:53 PM 963 Views
You're right, most aren't channelers... - 29/11/2012 08:22:04 PM 744 Views
That's because you see it as a leash... - 03/12/2012 10:45:17 PM 801 Views
well it can be a leash, but that's up to the bond holder - 03/12/2012 10:56:49 PM 811 Views
where have we seen this emotional and physical stress that was related at all to the bond? *NM* - 04/12/2012 12:08:23 AM 508 Views
Eylas comes to mind - 04/12/2012 04:31:17 AM 584 Views
Even Cadsuane speaks of "taming" men who are bonded... - 04/12/2012 06:31:25 AM 802 Views
No argument from me on most of this - 04/12/2012 04:36:28 PM 877 Views
Moiraine and Myrelle seem to have a similar view... - 04/12/2012 12:10:05 AM 878 Views
Mostly agreed - 04/12/2012 04:34:47 AM 814 Views
Hmmm... - 29/11/2012 08:42:25 PM 813 Views
I think Aviendha (she told Min about it) is simply ignorant about the mechanics of masking *NM* - 30/11/2012 03:44:01 AM 523 Views
Elayne told Min... - 30/11/2012 05:07:44 AM 673 Views
You are correct ... Min told Aviendha! - 30/11/2012 03:59:27 PM 733 Views
Re: You are correct ... Min told Aviendha! - 30/11/2012 04:04:53 PM 801 Views
Nope.. - 30/11/2012 08:56:59 PM 659 Views
this is the scene I'm referring too ... but it DID work for Aviendha - 30/11/2012 10:19:21 PM 806 Views
Thanks to both of you for digging this up... - 01/12/2012 04:01:48 AM 760 Views
Re: Thanks to both of you for digging this up... - 01/12/2012 04:37:54 AM 742 Views
About Alanna, that isn't right... - 01/12/2012 05:51:03 AM 693 Views
It most certainly is... - 01/12/2012 03:52:45 PM 770 Views
Yet Min holds Rands Bond *NM* - 01/12/2012 05:48:39 AM 447 Views
And? What does that prove? - 01/12/2012 05:53:43 AM 809 Views
I think we do know a couple of things - 01/12/2012 03:32:09 PM 701 Views
Ah, then yes, we're on the same side of this argument. - 01/12/2012 11:08:23 PM 734 Views
You still haven't addressed the main point... - 02/12/2012 03:01:32 AM 791 Views
Hmmm - 01/12/2012 04:22:26 AM 733 Views
I'm pretty sure Elayas can't mask the bond either ... I'd have to go look, but I think there - 30/11/2012 03:41:51 AM 804 Views
Something when he's talking to Perrin? - 30/11/2012 07:25:33 PM 699 Views
found it - 30/11/2012 10:11:53 PM 862 Views
Day #5 - What!?!?!?! - 30/11/2012 05:46:44 PM 890 Views
I really want that to be a sarcastic moment between Mat and Egwene *NM* - 30/11/2012 06:06:18 PM 377 Views
This sounds like Moiraine to me...possibly dry and sarcastic... - 01/12/2012 04:05:21 AM 752 Views
Who whispers sarcastically though? - 01/12/2012 04:29:30 AM 727 Views
Many people do... - 01/12/2012 05:47:06 AM 808 Views
Not seeing it in the situation you wrote. Sorry. - 01/12/2012 03:57:32 PM 767 Views
Of course you don't. In your world, Egwene will glare at Tuon and Tuon will drop to her knees.... - 01/12/2012 11:13:53 PM 891 Views
What's that got to do with anything? - 02/12/2012 03:00:08 AM 952 Views
Hmm yeah sounds more like Moiraine or possibly Nynaeve *NM* - 01/12/2012 07:03:42 AM 512 Views
Day 6 .... Galad ... MEH - 02/12/2012 04:31:29 PM 1097 Views
Day 7 ... "Nobody travels the Ways," Ituralde said, aghast. - 02/12/2012 05:39:56 PM 952 Views
Not Demandred I think - 04/12/2012 07:16:27 AM 847 Views
Demandred wouldn't be seen using the Ways himself! - 04/12/2012 09:04:06 PM 803 Views
My thought was Ituralde finding out about Caemlyn - 05/12/2012 12:11:03 AM 1064 Views
Yup ... And I suspect we'll be seeing several more attacks like this - 05/12/2012 12:14:34 AM 841 Views
Yup ... And I suspect we'll be seeing several more attacks like this - 05/12/2012 12:14:36 AM 885 Views
Well not personally obviously - 05/12/2012 08:11:41 AM 808 Views
The Light would be stupid to risk them now that they have Traveling - 05/12/2012 03:06:21 PM 760 Views
Maybe they have to use them - 06/12/2012 06:40:49 AM 880 Views

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