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Your recognition of irony is profound Cannoli Send a noteboard - 26/02/2017 08:39:47 AM

You have spent over a decade railing at length against all things Aes Sedai yet that is TRULY the best explanation you can find...?

There are just too many instances like that to pretend that Jordan was showing the limits of their imagination, rather than his own. With Egwene there are often direct contrasts which I can use to claim that he is deliberately subverting her. The examples I mentioned, and many other things concerning the Power, don't have any such counter-examples to suggest that Jordan was aware of their shortcomings. Having Egwene consistently undercut her own rationales allows me to argue that she is evil, but when every instance of creativity or ingenuity on the part of One Power users consists of inventing new weaves, rather than more useful applications for existing ones, that too is a pattern.
He was eager to canoodle with Egwene; he just did not want to accept the concomitant duties. Because he was what, 16, 17?
19. And he never once gives any indication of physical attraction or sexual interest in any degree. He might admire her beauty, but he shows more hormonal response to a woman is one chapter with Elayne than three books of Egwene. The very first mention of their relationship has Tam teasingly suggesting just what you said, and Rand faking enthusiasm in response.
Stop being so absurd. If he's the God Emperor of Dune, where are his hordes of fanatically loyal blue-eyed desert super-warriors?

Standing behind the Aiel and in front of the Dragonsworn, I guess.
Hey, yeah. That's right. That is kind of similar.
Where is his polygamous relationship

Well, first off, the comparison is with Leto II, not Paul, but:
Leto II didn't have a polygamous relationship, he had a sham marriage.
with a desert shaman girl

She is standing next to the Wise One from the Aiel Waste—y'know, the people who have actually BEEN compared to the Fremen?
Not least by me, three lines up.
and a princess trained by a secretive all-female order of manipulators?

She is on top of the Aes Sedai Queen of Andor.
Well, I suppose you could call Elayne a princess...
Well first Where is his twin son & daughter? Does he have children born with superhuman abilities?

Elayne has the twins; Aviendhas are quadruplets. And, come to think of it, their ability to channel from the womb is similar to Leto II, his aunt and his twin being "pre-born" with Other Memory from the moment of conception.
Oh, wow. Color me shocked. I guess I should read one or the other book series before running my mouth.
Get your facts straight before making absurd comparisons to other works.

Uh... huh....

Soooo embarassed...

Yeah, Mats assertion he always did his chores back home is less "proud" than "defensive." He is a born carouser and gambler, but his deep bonds of duty to friends, family and home ensure he meets his responsibilities to them—GRUDINGLY. "The extremes to which he is dragged on his quest in TDR" are the beginning of what changes him into more than the shifty and shiftless prevaricator so easily seduced by a gem encrusted blade despite KNOWING it was dripping with diabolic malice.

Actually, he did not know. No one did until Moiraine diagnosed him at the nadir of his affliction. She gets all huffy that he didn't take her single question about Mordeth giving them gifts to the very limits of any possible interpretation, but she also criticizes Rand for not remembering her one question about dreams, too. He was not a shiftless prevaricator, since he doesn't lie that we see, except to stupid kids to play pranks, and has a considerable number of skills that take practice and labor to learn. He might be considered shiftless by the standards of the puritanical Two Rivers folk, because he like gambling, but that's about it.
"He always took care of his men and retainers" after galloping away from them before they even BECAME "his," only to be drawn back by the knowledge that meant abandoning them to certain excruciating death:
This doesn't fit anything. The only galloping away he did was trying to ditch them after the battle at Cairhien, which was hardly abandoning them to certain excruciating death. When their deaths were on the line, he never tried to leave them, and their fate was his direct motivation for accepting leadership of one of the flanking units.
Another GROWTH moment.
No, it was basically the same characteristic behavior that Siuan recognized in Mat in one of his first PoV chapters in the whole series, when she compared him to her uncle who died trying to rescue children from a fire.
Until then, and even some while after, Mat could not care less about the sterotypical nobles "failures at the obligations of their positions;" if anything, he was on the side of those resenting those duties.

When? How? Where does he say this? He resents a virtual stranger imposing dangers and difficulties on him by association, but if something truly needs to be done, and there is no one more qualified, Mat steps up.
The difference is that he had enough "character" not to ignore duties simply because he resented them, which gradually transforms him from a carousing gambler and horse trader (the medieval equivalent of a used car salesman) to an honorable martial and civil leader of men.
He wasn't a horse trader, he merely possessed negotiation skills, passed on from his father, which he himself characterizes as being born of careful consideration of all aspects of a situation, rather than any moral flexibility. Such behavior as you suggest would be more akin to the Coplins and Congars, who were scorned and looked down upon in their community. The Cauthons would not have been so accepted if Abell or Mat made a living swindling and taking advantage of the people they lived among. No one, during Perrin's return, for example, suggests that the arrest of his mother and sisters has anything to do with chickens coming home to roost.

The finished product was a "product" of Jordans own obsession with writing "Epic" Fantasy in the literally largest sense. Halfway through the series my only question was whether he had predetermined its length "must" be a "symbolic" dozen books or as many as there were Forsaken, but the series cosmology always argued strongly for the latter. Hence Jordans deathbed vow that AMoL would be the thirteenth and final book

aMoL was intended to be the 12th. tGS was 12, ToM was 13 & aMoL ended up as 14.
"even if it needs its own baggage cart" or whatever his phrase was. That is NOT an author milking a series for greed, "only" milking one for ego.
It seems more like he was trying to cut it off, having previously let it get out of control. I don't see why RJ felt the need to stretch out WoT for more money. Keep going back to the well of a finished work, yes. But in the internet era, he had an audience ready for anything else he might want to sell, and he had the planned outrigger & sequel novels as well. He had better options if he was motivated by profit, but losing control of the pace and plot of the main series suggests an attachment over and above mere cupidity.
As for Sanderson, he is not perfect, but had to satisfy not only himself but three other people, one them DEAD, another the dead authors editor-wife, and the last his own PUBLISHER.

So you said before, and I repeat my assertion that the last two didn't seem to care about anything other than something they can put on a shelf and sell.
That practically ensured the final "product" would be FAR less than perfect, but the actual factual details he missed were few. The problem was that his style and treatment of several key characters just felt off, because it was: He was not Jordan, and could not possibly share the same intuitive understanding of the characters as their creator had.
Then how do you explain me and tons of other people having a superior understanding of said characters and their arcs and what actually happened to them, to the guy who had access to Jordan's notes? None of the handicaps you claim Sanderson was working under account for stupidity and illogic of the concepts he put on the page, or things he changed as if he was completely incapable of seeing their point in the series. The warder bonds, for instance, were used to add depth to the perception of one character through another's eyes. It added a layer to their interactions, being aware of each other's feelings and mental state. Sanderson completely omitted that from every single scene featuring a warder-bonded couple, except for the silly telelpathic double bond of Pevara & Androl in his fan-fiction digression that took up a disproportionate amount of space in the last two books, at the expense of Logain, a character Jordan had been building up to play a role in the finale since at least book 4, and who had been a significant presence since book 1. Tell me how Harriet or Dougherty imposed that nonsense on him, why don't you?
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
This message last edited by Cannoli on 26/02/2017 at 08:42:20 AM
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How did you feel after completing AMoL? - - 24/02/2017 04:03:10 AM 1651 Views
Unsatisfied I suppose or perhaps regretful - 24/02/2017 02:54:12 PM 1095 Views
I'll post this again - 25/02/2017 01:29:16 AM 823 Views
Very good post, can't argue with it. - 25/02/2017 02:40:18 AM 1016 Views
I can argue with some of it - 25/02/2017 09:32:17 PM 939 Views
You can say whatever you want, but you're wrong - 25/02/2017 10:40:58 PM 877 Views
We are not discussing concrete facts, so objective error is impossible - 26/02/2017 01:21:46 AM 1001 Views
In any discussion, error is possible. In your discussions, it's a near certainty. - 28/02/2017 08:24:59 PM 841 Views
On a different topic, how important do you think that stuff is? - 03/03/2017 07:20:15 AM 953 Views
It's all about suspending disbelief, isn't it? - 04/03/2017 01:13:12 AM 936 Views
That makes a lot of sense. - 08/03/2017 10:18:56 PM 921 Views
On further reflection, I think the religion element being left out is important. - 04/03/2017 04:07:53 AM 851 Views
Middle-Earth? - 08/03/2017 09:53:45 PM 1024 Views
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Re: But did they really undeniably prove this existence? - 10/03/2017 07:47:11 AM 1043 Views
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Some points - 25/02/2017 11:54:50 PM 919 Views
Well, some THINGS anyway. - 26/02/2017 01:56:29 AM 889 Views
Your recognition of irony is profound - 26/02/2017 08:39:47 AM 850 Views
mosty disappointment - 27/02/2017 10:15:29 PM 862 Views
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With Demandred... That was likely at least somewhat the point. - 28/02/2017 06:09:13 AM 827 Views
Not best pleased. - 27/02/2017 11:59:06 PM 805 Views
It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 01/03/2017 02:22:19 AM 857 Views
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Re: It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 01/03/2017 11:23:18 PM 962 Views
Re: It felt like the end of Grease when the car flew off - 02/03/2017 06:07:12 AM 836 Views
I still haven't read it. - 01/03/2017 08:03:53 PM 811 Views
Interesting, any reason why you haven't read it yet? *NM* - 01/03/2017 10:26:21 PM 492 Views
It was the end of their world as I knew it, and I felt fine. *NM* - 02/03/2017 11:13:25 PM 534 Views
You were just happy that you-know-who died! *NM* - 03/03/2017 02:47:38 AM 530 Views
Disappointed, shocked, relieved. - 03/03/2017 04:44:56 PM 786 Views
Curious - what were you hoping to happen to Rand at the end? *NM* - 03/03/2017 09:00:12 PM 545 Views
Me too! - 04/03/2017 10:19:21 AM 732 Views
I cried and I was glad it was over! - 04/03/2017 09:13:03 PM 883 Views
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