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Re: I disagree TheCrownless Send a noteboard - 18/10/2009 10:04:27 PM

But in that case everyone’s actions are meaningless, Rand might as well go to Illian docks and make himself available to sailors for the "good" stuff.

Sure, he could if he wanted to. However, it is important to remember that even though everyone's actions are meaningless in the big picture, they matter to the characters themselves.

And?

We know the Dark One doesn't win, otherwise it would be a rubbish story.

It would depend on how it was done. Sometimes having the bad guys win can make for a marvelous ending..

You know what I mean.

You have to look at these things in a relative way, important to the story, not the paradoxical universe that could never happen and is just the figment of someones imagination.

First of all, I have to do nothing of the sort. Secondly the "paradoxical universe" that I was talking about is the same as the "real" one that you are talking about. It is also still just the figment of someone's (in this case, Robert Jordan's) imagination..

Like I said, Robert Jordans whole universe needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, it's a massive paradox. The context I'm using is that the question is related to the events in this "dimension" unrelated to all the alternative universes my logical mind can’t comprehend. As I said, you've picked the wrong person to have this debate with, since we're essentially playing a whole different ball game.
I'm discussing what actually happened in the books, and how important they are to the events in that world, not relative to the events in every other world, that gets far too messy for me. I'm sure you and Cannoli can split hairs running around in circles discussing all the weird flaws in RJ's universe and how they affect the characters and the overall plot, but for me that strips the fun out of the series. I'm not a stargate/startrek fan or any of those other spacey things, I like swords and shields and scary monsters.

You're trying to argue philosophy (a poor excuse for actual science) with the wrong person. Without Moiraine the DO would have Rand and would be free and have won, end of story.

Science is a philosophy, but philosophy is more than science. Philosophy is the study of thought.

Spoken like a true whateveryouthinkyouare

Also, you're wrong. Rand is ta'veren. The Pattern spun him out for a purpose, and it gives him what he needs to accomplish that purpose. It gave him Moiraine, and yes, she helped him. A little anyway, at first.

So how does this belittle what she's done? As you said earlier "even though everyone's actions are meaningless in the big picture, they matter to the characters themselves."

If she hadn't been there, someone else would have picked up the slack, and Rand still would have been fine. You have argued that that argument is invalid; that even if someone else could have done what Moiraine did, she is the one who actually did it. By this logic, Master Hightower is one of the most important people in the fight against the Shadow. He took everyone on the first ferry trip as you will recall. Without him, Rand and Moiraine and everyone else never would have made it out of the Two Rivers. Pretty silly huh?

The point I'm making is that what Moiraine did was extraordinary, the boatman was doing what he did every day of his life. Oskar Schindler did some extaordinary things, but without the people who sold him the steel and other metals to make the ammunitions he'd have never been able to do it, does that put them equal to him in real terms, does it make his acts any less important because he was reliant in some parts on others?

I also need to point out that in every book except the Eye of the World, Moiraine's plans and goals are just plain wrong, and more often than not would play directly into the Dark One's hands. For the vast majority of the series, Rand succeeds in spite of Moiraine, not because of her.

That’s a matter of opinion. I tend to disagree, but it's insulting that you think it's acceptable to start a paragraph with "I also need to point out that" on something so subjective.

This really does need to end here, I was trying to be polite and light hearted in my previous posts but it seems to have spiraled. I'm not going to start arguing about alternate realities and paradoxes because my tiny little brain can’t handle it, if you want to discuss Moiraines actions in relation to the events of the book and the other characters in the book then be my guest, otherwise I think you need to find another dueling partner.

Come to the dark side, We have candy!

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Which character (besides Rand) has hurt the shadow the most? (my analysis and your opinion) RabidWombat - 17/10/2009 05:16:34 AM 1741 Views

Nyneave wins hands down Isaac - 17/10/2009 05:22:08 AM 994 Views

Nyneave has done more fairfax - 17/10/2009 06:42:26 AM 932 Views

Nynaeve! Fantasy - 17/10/2009 04:12:00 PM 865 Views

I'd say Mat BlackAdder - 17/10/2009 04:40:48 PM 947 Views

are you sure? NaClH2O - 17/10/2009 04:48:01 PM 961 Views

Not to downplay Nynaeve BlackAdder - 17/10/2009 08:40:45 PM 932 Views

Beg to differ, the "endless summer" was VERY important to the shadow NaClH2O - 17/10/2009 10:44:15 PM 1146 Views

Re: Beg to differ, the "endless summer" was VERY important to the shadow BlackAdder - 18/10/2009 11:10:20 PM 900 Views

believe what you want, but if the weather hadn't changed when it did TG would be over by now. *NM* NaClH2O - 18/10/2009 11:56:09 PM 417 Views

Actually, there might be a better reason for why it mattered. Lord Haart - 10/12/2009 07:03:32 PM 910 Views

Immaterial. NaClH2O - 10/12/2009 07:48:51 PM 788 Views

It has to be Moiraine TheCrownless - 17/10/2009 05:00:32 PM 957 Views

Actually there were a couple of versions that happened, and Moiraine came in neither. Cannoli - 17/10/2009 05:32:52 PM 1099 Views

So you think the story would have panned out TheCrownless - 17/10/2009 05:46:46 PM 806 Views

None. *NM* BlackAdder - 17/10/2009 08:43:08 PM 404 Views

That's highly subjective ranagrande - 17/10/2009 08:52:17 PM 879 Views

Re: That's highly subjective BlackAdder - 17/10/2009 08:54:52 PM 814 Views

I think you know exactly what I mean. TheCrownless - 17/10/2009 10:53:40 PM 819 Views

All of them

ranagrande - 18/10/2009 12:09:55 AM 916 Views

Those were only visions TheCrownless - 18/10/2009 12:45:32 AM 828 Views

They may have only been visions... ranagrande - 18/10/2009 09:19:05 AM 911 Views

"Every possible outcome to a given situation is the actual outcome somewhere" TheCrownless - 18/10/2009 04:45:44 PM 815 Views

Re: "Every possible outcome to a given situation is the actual outcome somewhere" ranagrande - 18/10/2009 06:51:42 PM 967 Views

That all goes without saying TheCrownless - 18/10/2009 07:26:06 PM 742 Views

I disagree ranagrande - 18/10/2009 07:58:37 PM 881 Views

Re: I disagree TheCrownless - 18/10/2009 10:04:27 PM 841 Views

It's almost irrelevant- the Dragon Reborn was Foretold beetnemesis - 18/10/2009 02:07:47 AM 829 Views

Does that mean he'd win? TheCrownless - 18/10/2009 04:47:56 PM 835 Views

IIRC the prophecies don't say anything about whether the DR will win. BlackAdder - 18/10/2009 05:05:03 PM 786 Views

Not really what I was arguing. TheCrownless - 18/10/2009 05:30:05 PM 809 Views

Good points RabidWombat - 18/10/2009 06:14:08 AM 900 Views

the BCS is not a good system

*NM* ranagrande - 18/10/2009 09:08:25 AM 415 Views

Re: Which character (besides Rand) has hurt the shadow the most? (my analysis and your opinion) Cannoli - 17/10/2009 05:26:26 PM 1084 Views

Someone needs to re-adjust their meds RabidWombat - 18/10/2009 05:55:58 AM 977 Views

I wouldn't bother justifying yourself to him TheCrownless - 18/10/2009 05:41:42 PM 838 Views

That is true for most people if not all RabidWombat - 18/10/2009 11:28:44 PM 861 Views

He's got a point though... Cannoli - 21/10/2009 11:18:38 AM 921 Views

"Always fight back! Never justify" Internet discussion rules 101. TheCrownless - 21/10/2009 04:37:32 PM 795 Views

Damn skippy! *NM* Cannoli - 21/10/2009 11:17:36 AM 395 Views

Ishamael/Moridin Sidious - 17/10/2009 06:44:35 PM 1094 Views

Good call TheCrownless - 17/10/2009 10:55:38 PM 903 Views

Not to mention I think he's more interested in self preservation at this moment Ryan - 18/10/2009 07:18:28 AM 761 Views

Re: Ishamael/Moridin ranagrande - 18/10/2009 09:21:29 AM 1008 Views

lol It goes to show that even when you think you're doing evil, the Pattern makes it good. *NM* RugbyPlayingAshaman - 18/10/2009 06:25:08 PM 386 Views

You make it sound very simple BlackAdder - 18/10/2009 10:47:57 PM 935 Views

No - it is very simple Sidious - 19/10/2009 05:01:44 AM 895 Views

Not necessarily- Digital_Eon - 19/10/2009 09:22:16 PM 881 Views

surely a draw meant resealing TheCrownless - 20/10/2009 03:56:49 PM 796 Views

I'm going with Nynaeve. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 18/10/2009 06:23:55 PM 929 Views

Re: I'm going with Nynaeve. BlackAdder - 18/10/2009 10:56:06 PM 990 Views

Re: I'm going with Nynaeve. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 18/10/2009 11:22:36 PM 943 Views

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<quote id="35502">
<quote id="35467"><quote id="35461">But in that case everyone’s actions are meaningless, Rand might as well go to Illian docks and make himself available to sailors for the "good" stuff. </quote>Sure, he could if he wanted to.  However, it is important to remember that even though everyone's actions are meaningless in the big picture, they matter to the characters themselves.</quote>
And?
<quote id="35467"><quote id="35461">We know the Dark One doesn't win, otherwise it would be a rubbish story.</quote>It would depend on how it was done.  Sometimes having the bad guys win can make for a marvelous ending..</quote>
You know what I mean.

<quote id="35467"><quote id="35461">You have to look at these things in a relative way, important to the story, not the paradoxical universe that could never happen and is just the figment of someones imagination. </quote>First of all, I have to do nothing of the sort.  Secondly the "paradoxical universe" that I was talking about is the same as the "real" one that you are talking about.  It is also still just the figment of someone's (in this case, Robert Jordan's) imagination..</quote>
Like I said, Robert Jordans whole universe needs to be taken with a pinch of salt, it's a massive paradox. The context I'm using is that the question is related to the events in this "dimension" unrelated to all the alternative universes my logical mind can’t comprehend. As I said, you've picked the wrong person to have this debate with, since we're essentially playing a whole different ball game.
I'm discussing what actually happened in the books, and how important they are to the events in that world, not relative to the events in every other world, that gets far too messy for me. I'm sure you and Cannoli can split hairs running around in circles discussing all the weird flaws in RJ's universe and how they affect the characters and the overall plot, but for me that strips the fun out of the series. I'm not a stargate/startrek fan or any of those other spacey things, I like swords and shields and scary monsters.

<quote id="35467"><quote id="35461">You're trying to argue philosophy (a poor excuse for actual science) with the wrong person. Without Moiraine the DO would have Rand and would be free and have won, end of story.</quote>Science is a philosophy, but philosophy is more than science.  Philosophy is the study of thought.</quote>
Spoken like a true whateveryouthinkyouare

<quote id="35467">Also, you're wrong.  Rand is ta'veren.  The Pattern spun him out for a purpose, and it gives him what he needs to accomplish that purpose.  It gave him Moiraine, and yes, she helped him.  A little anyway, at first.</quote>
So how does this belittle what she's done? As you said earlier "even though everyone's actions are meaningless in the big picture, they matter to the characters themselves."

<quote id="35467">If she hadn't been there, someone else would have picked up the slack, and Rand still would have been fine.  You have argued that that argument is invalid; that even if someone else could have done what Moiraine did, she is the one who actually did it.  By this logic, Master Hightower is one of the most important people in the fight against the Shadow.  He took everyone on the first ferry trip as you will recall.  Without him, Rand and Moiraine and everyone else never would have made it out of the Two Rivers.  Pretty silly huh?</quote>
The point I'm making is that what Moiraine did was extraordinary, the boatman was doing what he did every day of his life. Oskar Schindler did some extaordinary things, but without the people who sold him the steel and other metals to make the ammunitions he'd have never been able to do it, does that put them equal to him in real terms, does it make his acts any less important because he was reliant in some parts on others?

<quote id="35467">I also need to point out that in every book except the Eye of the World, Moiraine's plans and goals are just plain wrong, and more often than not would play directly into the Dark One's hands.  For the vast majority of the series, Rand succeeds in spite of Moiraine, not because of her.</quote>
That’s a matter of opinion. I tend to disagree, but it's insulting that you think it's acceptable to start a paragraph with "I also need to point out that" on something so subjective.

This really does need to end here, I was trying to be polite and light hearted in my previous posts but it seems to have spiraled. I'm not going to start arguing about alternate realities and paradoxes because my tiny little brain can’t handle it, if you want to discuss Moiraines actions in relation to the events of the book and the other characters in the book then be my guest, otherwise I think you need to find another dueling partner.

</quote>

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