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Re: Touched a nerve did I? Sidious Send a noteboard - 31/10/2009 09:33:34 AM
You can easily blame those "platters" as results of things unravelling in the world so quickly as well as people manipulating her destiny . Yes, her association with Rand got her a fact ticket out of Novice whites into Accepted dresses, but you know what, she passed the test!
So did every other shawl-wearing idiot and a good deal of evil women as well. Every single Black sister EVER has passed that test, along with such luminaries as Elaida or Shemerin, as well as some washouts in the Kin. Passing it isn't very hard, which is why no one gets a second chance. What most women must do is prove themselves ready through the daily grind over years, rather than lucking into a break which allows them to skip the tedium. Egwene was not given the chance to take the test because she earned it, but because it was convenient.

She went through the rings just like every1 else and came back out whole and stronger. She learned weaves faster than any novice previously recruited.
Says who? Show me where it says that (when they are provably talking about her original novitiate, and not her episode in KoD-tGS). In any event, even if it was true, that would make her merely a technically skilled channeler, and not a good person in the least.

She was trained for a very short period of time before being tested for Accepted.
And she, and every other candidate, was not trained for the test! The two things have nothing to do with one another! The tests to advance ranks in the Tower have nothing to do with one's training, but are more of an initiation an initiate must pass to advance. They get the tests after they have proved themselves. It is not a test on how well they have learned so far, merely an assessment of their priorities.

And she was summoned to be the puppet Amyrlin, and she knew this. She turned it around on her manipulators however.
Because she had the assistance of Siuan, which was available because Nynaeve figured out her game and blackmailed her into cooperation and refused to let her get away with defying Egwene. Also helping improve her reputation among the sisters was Nynaeve and Elayne handing her Moghedian as a resource for pretending Egwene was making discoveries. Handed. Platter.

She didn't earn her shawl or put in the time or effort? ROFL, I am now doubting you even read the books at all!
Did you? Where every other woman had to wait her turn, and before the "Wondergirls" the previous shortest time to the Accepted and Aes Sedai tests was three years each. Egwene was raised to the Amyrlin Seat less than two years after she met her first ever Aes Sedai! She did NOT in ANY WAY put in the smallest fraction of the time appropriate to the office.

Siuan herself trained her in history, politics, and shit. She was appointed Amyrlin as a clueless bumpkin, but she didn't fully become Amyrlin until she learned every law, history, and traditions of Aes Sedai.
Says who? She wasn't waiting or anything, it was simply that the opportunity to take real power didn't come along until she had learned that stuff. Had she had the chance to seize dictatorial power on her first day in Salidar, she'd have lept on it! As it was, she was disgruntled that they did not trust an 18-year-old to issues decrees on her first day on the job holding ANY authority. She even KNEW she was not qualified, but still tried to wield power anyway. It's like she was placed in the cockpit of a plane, protested that she had not the slightest idea how to fly it, and then started plotting out to get the real pilot out of the seat so she could grab the controls herself!

Even then it wasn't official because she was chosen by rebels and not enough official Sitters! She was handed a Forsaken to be taught secret weaves? You think Moghedien just rolled over for them? NO!
YES! Read the book! That's what happened!

Nynaeve captured her and rightly turned her over for questioning?
Um, yes.

She ran with Maidens, she sat with Wise Ones, and she was accepted as a bond-sister.
What the HELL are you talking about? Is this some fan fiction story you wrote? Because Egwene never "ran with Maidens" and even if she had, that has not the slightest bearing on her qualifications for anything other than being a Maiden, or joinig the track team. No one trusts Maidens with any responsibilities other than telling other Maidens what to do. The only running Egwene did was run punishment laps with Aviendha, a FORMER Maiden, who ran slowly in the freezing cold to keep Egwene company when she could have been in her bed in half the time. The only other reference that might explain this delusion of yours is when she is bragging to herself after a Wise-One-style physical examination that she is close to being as fast as a Maiden. What the hell do you mean by that "bond-sister" thing? It was Elayne whom Aviendha actually adopted as a sister and shared a bond with. All she and Egwene did was make friends, what with being the only two people of their age for miles around, that is hardly extraordinary. Note that despite their friendship, Aviendha wants no part of following her as Amyrlin.

As for Verin appearing and handing her the list, WHO ELSE WAS SHE GOING TO HAND THE LIST TO. Wow, are you dense? You think Verin could trust anyone besides Egwene during that situation in the WT? The WT was at a crisis point where it could break. You think Verin could have stopped the Black Ajah by herself?
So what? This does not prove that Egwene is good, only that she is the only who was there. Verin decided it was time to share her hard-won information, gathered at great risk for 70 years, got to the Tower, found it a mess, and only Egwene there. She was the only one of Siuan's searchers left in the Tower, since the other two had more important work elsewhere, and she did not know about Saerin's group.

And you're blaming Egwene's rescue as a platter handed to her?!?!?
Well it's not like she did anything to help it along or set it up, did she?

Siuan and Gawyn were genuinely concerned and RIGHTLY went after her, against her orders mind you. Cheese and rice.
What is your point? Siuan and Gawyn were concerned, rightly, you concede, and she, wrongly, was mad at them. You really haven't got clue one about logic or cause and effect or anything remotely resembling rational thought do you? How is this an argument in Egwene's favor? And what the hell is cheese and rice supposed to mean?

What about her time spent training with the Aiel. You think she could have endured her capture by the WT w/o it? She put blood, sweat and tears into her training. If the Aiel trust her and make here their own, then that says something about her character.
It says that savages who hold human life in small value, who have misled their people so badly as to produce the Meradin and the Shaido, like her. Beyond that, it proves nothing, aside from her appeal to a barbaric and backward culture that doesn't even understand where babies come from, that thinks the height of morality is a game of tag during a battle.

He got the Band by rescuing them with knowledge and skills that he hasn't earned. You think Mat would have been able to lead the Band as successfully without the "gifts" he received from the Eelfinn and his ta'averen luck??!?
He made a deal and paid the price. That knowledge has not given him anything, aside from the ability to carry out the responsibilities the knowledge foists on him. The Eelfin gave him that knowledge to be dicks. He WANTED his own memories back, and they gave him memories they knew would make him have to fight. The memories were a curse, because Mat cannot claim ignorance or innocence anymore. When he sees soldiers in trouble, he is able to recognize them and their danger, and his humanity and sense of responsibility impell him to wanr them and put his skin on the line to prove his sincerity. He, or any sane person (except Egwene who never gave any sign of anything other than exultation at being in a battle), would never want to command in a battle, and he cared nothing for the authority or power. It was a burden that was handed to him, not a gift! This is not complicated or in-depth analysis - it is all but stated outright in the books!

HELL NO! The Pattern bends over for him and whoever is around him, so don't tell me he earns almost everything. Egwene doesn't have that luxury.
You have NO understanding of the Pattern or ta'veren if that's what you think is going on. It has been stated in the story that ta'veren have no choices about their destiny. They have to do what the Pattern plans for them or die. This is not my opinion or interpretation but the fact stated by the Aelfinn whose answers are always true, and supported by the perceptions of the ta'veren themselves. It is also stated that the Pattern keeps beneficial and harmful effects in balance, so the shortcuts and luck that they appear to stumble into are only the Pattern's way of making up for forcing them along an impossible path - it gives forces them to do things, but gives them the tools to do it. Anything it "hands" them is to help them out of an impossible situation they would not be in without the Pattern forcing them.

Everything that has happened to her outside the vicinity of her ta'averen friends were coincidental or through her own choices and efforts or by the manipulation of others. Egwene had no real control over her own destiny until she has real political power.
So what? What does this mean anyway? First of all you are wrong in assuming that Egwene isn't still serving an end of the Pattern with her actions now, and no matter how much is significant Pattern-inspired coincidence and how much is sheer randomness, it is NOT done through her efforts or qualities, but, as you say, coincidence! THAT is the good quality of Egwene? That coincidence works out for her more often than not?

Egwene wants power and glory? really? I never got that impression from her during her POVs.
Then you are an idiot. From the first conversation with Rand in EotW, or even her stream of consciousness in Ravens, she has always sought greater status and recognition. This is simply not open to debate and her more intelligent and sophisticated promoters accept this aspect of her character and attempt to spin it in a positive light.
Her thoughts and actions clearly reveal her genuine concern for the WT, its habitants,
No argument there! That's one of the problems I have with her! She loves and favors this pack of idiotic obstructionists and will always take their part over that of her supposed friend, who is also the one person vital to the salvation of the world! She is planning to punish Rand for his followers bonding Aes Sedai, even though she knows Elaida ordered them after the Black Tower and they were acting in self-defense and that Rand probably did not even order the bonding! But it was done to Aes Sedai, so no matter what the extenuating circumstances, punishment must be meted out, and never mind how close Tarmon Gaidon is looming!

and the welfare of her friends. Lets see what would happen without Egwene's efforts in restoring/leading the WT. Rand won't ally himself with the WT. The WT will be shattered by the Black Ajah.
All that proves is that the whole group is rotten, it does not demonstrate any positive quality of Egwene. These things are or should be the automatic goal of any non-Shadowsworn person with a grain of sense. What do you want, a medal because she did not burn Verin's books and has not specifically called for Rand to be gentled without a trial?


So you've conceded precisely ZERO points in this post, or any other in this thread. You find nothing redeeming about a single thing she's done that anyone can mention. Time to take a step back and see if you're rational, or just reaching levels of hatred for the character that you just can't see past.
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Well Brandon Sanderson has officially killed off the last volume of the Epic Saga of the Chosen One. - 30/10/2009 02:36:19 AM 2372 Views
Life in unfair, just let Egwene have it already. - 30/10/2009 03:11:04 AM 786 Views
I skimmed cannoli's predictable rant. I disagree. I LOVED EVERY CHAPTER! - 30/10/2009 03:29:24 AM 724 Views
Agreed! *NM* - 30/10/2009 03:47:52 AM 473 Views
I liked her chapters. Mainly because they gave her something to do. - 30/10/2009 09:43:58 PM 652 Views
I adore Brandon Sanderson. - 30/10/2009 05:05:11 AM 772 Views
Me too - 30/10/2009 10:38:52 AM 823 Views
Exactly. - 30/10/2009 04:33:11 PM 658 Views
Re: I adore Brandon Sanderson. - 30/10/2009 02:45:03 PM 808 Views
Re: I adore Brandon Sanderson. - 30/10/2009 04:34:53 PM 673 Views
I think he meant Cannoli, not you, Seriana. *NM* - 30/10/2009 05:30:17 PM 397 Views
Ahhh. - 30/10/2009 09:15:14 PM 650 Views
Re: Ahhh. - 31/10/2009 03:51:14 AM 650 Views
Re: Ahhh. - 01/11/2009 06:37:41 AM 672 Views
Ditto. Thought he was a breath of fresh air to the series. - 30/10/2009 03:27:43 PM 653 Views
If renewal means someone grossly unfamiliar with the series, sure. - 30/10/2009 06:26:19 PM 1176 Views
Everything up to tGS - 30/10/2009 06:25:28 PM 864 Views
Re: Everything up to tGS - 30/10/2009 08:21:33 PM 853 Views
What on earth makes you think I dislike it? - 31/10/2009 05:25:07 AM 761 Views
General impression lately I guess. - 31/10/2009 04:38:29 PM 698 Views
Re: General impression lately I guess. - 31/10/2009 10:41:06 PM 683 Views
Thanks. - 01/11/2009 06:32:12 AM 762 Views
double post, hate my computer. - 30/10/2009 08:24:12 PM 759 Views
Don't agree completely but what I do want to see is - 30/10/2009 07:12:54 AM 701 Views
so I guess ... - 30/10/2009 02:48:10 PM 853 Views
You want a friend like Mat - 30/10/2009 06:33:47 PM 673 Views
might I add.. - 30/10/2009 08:30:24 AM 622 Views
Re: might I add.. - 30/10/2009 10:41:39 AM 712 Views
Re: might I add.. - 30/10/2009 06:47:17 PM 725 Views
There is a difference between defending your home from attack - 31/10/2009 03:34:57 PM 635 Views
I sit somewhere in the middle, she's improved, but still many flaws - 30/10/2009 11:35:47 AM 708 Views
Like others don't have flaws? - 30/10/2009 02:58:08 PM 687 Views
EVERYTHING is handed to her on a platter! - 30/10/2009 06:41:02 PM 718 Views
Touched a nerve did I? - 30/10/2009 07:19:00 PM 829 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 30/10/2009 07:24:41 PM 732 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 30/10/2009 07:31:14 PM 787 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 31/10/2009 06:36:33 AM 691 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 31/10/2009 09:33:34 AM 693 Views
And you aren't? - 01/11/2009 12:42:50 AM 673 Views
Seems to me you're both right. - 01/11/2009 07:45:12 PM 637 Views
Bah - 30/10/2009 03:36:42 PM 746 Views
wait a sec... - 30/10/2009 04:31:56 PM 799 Views
Now now! Let's take off the rose-tinted glasses for a minute. - 30/10/2009 05:21:07 PM 638 Views
Re: Bah - 30/10/2009 06:49:47 PM 765 Views
Rant on! Rant on! - 30/10/2009 12:54:16 PM 614 Views
Re: Rant on! Rant on! - 30/10/2009 03:18:44 PM 681 Views
A personal question: Cannoli, are you threatened by a powerful woman? - 30/10/2009 07:13:30 PM 743 Views
Obviously. - 31/10/2009 05:37:52 AM 630 Views
Well... - 31/10/2009 05:56:56 AM 595 Views
Countries are real, normal and natural things. The White Tower has no proven value. - 31/10/2009 06:52:48 AM 677 Views
Tar Valon is a nation - 31/10/2009 09:20:43 AM 670 Views
The "Elaida's election was illegal because of Black Ajah Sitters" is really an absurd argument - 01/11/2009 12:06:32 AM 691 Views
It wasn't absurd. Just clever... - 01/11/2009 03:33:22 AM 724 Views
I wasn't saying the rebels had no cause for rebellion. Just that the election *was* legal. - 01/11/2009 10:38:59 AM 748 Views
Hmm..... - 06/11/2009 04:18:14 PM 595 Views
I take it she'll carefully avoid bringing up the war vote, then. *NM* - 08/11/2009 12:47:21 AM 276 Views
Not a problem... - 08/11/2009 06:17:39 AM 663 Views
Are you blinded by a pair of teats? - 31/10/2009 07:17:44 AM 838 Views
Re: Well Brandon Sanderson has officially killed off the last volume of the Epic Saga of the Chosen - 30/10/2009 11:38:24 PM 768 Views
The harbor chain incident was no less stupid because it helped her - 31/10/2009 05:40:20 AM 607 Views
It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats. - 31/10/2009 07:18:42 AM 749 Views
*snort* *NM* - 31/10/2009 07:19:49 AM 407 Views
Re: It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats. - 31/10/2009 09:28:16 AM 731 Views
Don't expect rationality from Cannoli... - 31/10/2009 02:01:45 PM 792 Views
Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 01/11/2009 01:07:06 AM 759 Views
Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 01/11/2009 04:30:21 AM 765 Views
Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 01/11/2009 08:41:58 AM 709 Views
Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 05/11/2009 02:40:16 AM 679 Views
Re: It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats. - 01/11/2009 12:31:10 AM 662 Views
I have one question - 01/11/2009 07:12:23 AM 698 Views
Capture, NOT kill, and she herself said the sa'angreal made that impossible. - 01/11/2009 07:59:44 AM 681 Views
Capture OR kill - 01/11/2009 09:12:08 AM 737 Views
Egwene isn't ta'veren - 31/10/2009 05:57:54 AM 652 Views
Re: Egwene isn't ta'veren - 31/10/2009 11:01:54 AM 630 Views
Events do seem to suggest otherwise. *NM* - 31/10/2009 04:40:42 PM 417 Views
I see Cannoll is still going strong about Egwene... - 01/11/2009 08:40:17 PM 694 Views
There were a few instances in the book where Egwene really bothered me. - 02/11/2009 12:54:10 AM 644 Views
Egwene's always been a hypocrite - 02/11/2009 02:06:58 PM 842 Views

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