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Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... Cannoli Send a noteboard - 01/11/2009 08:41:58 AM
Why doesn't another character's assessment matter, though? And Verin's statement that she riled up her (Black) associates is a statement of fact, backed by the fact that in one of the first instances of Egwene trying to bridge the gaps in the Tower, a Black was present and had to do what Egwene suggested.
You're right that anyone could see sense and do what Egwene did. Heck, Saerin, or Tarna would have come up with these ideas with their eyes closed.
As I said elsewhere, they had two disadvantages. One, they couldn't go from Ajah to Ajah. Two, they were themselves caught up in the pettiness and infighting, and these had come too far along before they realized that had happened to the Tower.
So, Egwene provided fresh perspective, and yes, it was Elaida's blunder which let her do that. But in her position, not every person is going to continue to speak to Aes Sedai and give counsel when doing so results in beatings and penance, rather than reasonable acceptance, more often than not. A Cadsuane or Nynaeve would have provided the same perspcetive, but would have completely lacked the patience to deal with these idiot women. Egwene remained invisible to Elaida, but was able to encourage cooperation by speaking to members of each Ajah in a language they could understand, making each see that their Ajah's purpose was well suited to heal the Tower.
Frankly, the only other character I can see having success in a similar scale is Elayne.
All of Egwene's immunity to the snares that prevented the sisters you mention from doing the same (and actually, Tarna was doing that, Elaida simply was not listening, and unlike Egwene, she actually had better things to do than make a martyr out of herself) is not of her doing. Quite frankly, my reaction upon reading these things was not about Egwene and her actions as such, but an assessment that any group who needed to be told these things deserves whatever fate befalls them, and especially does not serve protected or exalted status that the Aes Sedai demand as their due. Until Egwene shows some sign of reversing this position, rather than upholding it, I will remain indifferent to any so-called "heroism" on her part on behalf of the Tower. The most selfless & courageous sacrifice in the world for a useless cause is still useless. You know why you don't see Nynaeve, Cadsuane and Elayne making the same sacrifices as Egwene or being in her position? Because they have found worthy causes to work for and to offer their time and energies, namely the Dragon Reborn and the most powerful and decent country in the known world.

You must realize Cannoli, that if your reaction to Egwene improving in this book is to post a pages long rant against her, then your perspective is wonky, and no one can be blamed for thinking you were blindly criticizing Egwene.
Why? On what basis do you claim it is reasonable to assume I was blindly criticizing her? Why don't you actually look at the words. This original post was not even all that critical of Egwene, merely pointing out the hyperbolic expression of her portrayal, comparing it to my parodic recapitulation of the series.

As for taking action anyone could take... didn't you praise Elayne for increasing the size of the Queen's Guard and using Gateways to supply Caemlyn? Both are total no-brainers, and any Queen would have taken such actions.
Except she had her primary advisors opposing the increase of the guard. What opposition did Egwene face in utilizing Verin's books? I cited those things in response to sidious' ludicrous claim that Elayne was completely incompetant and saved from her military errors by the backstopping of her main supporters. I merely cited the key use of gateways as being as likely to come from Elayne as from anyone in her entourage, if not moreso, see as she was the lead channeler. It was a completely different type of argument, which is why I don't cite other people's criticisms of other characters in a discussion about one in particular. I have never offered those up as examples of great things that she did, and I only cited them to refute a claim that other people's leadership won her war for her.

It is hardly a stroke of genius to expand your army when you are the leader of the third and weakest faction fighting for a throne! I, however, can see that being absorbed in tradition and a myopic worldview prevented Dyelin from approving such action.
Well, why don't you find the place where I called it a stroke of genius or excused Dyelin's lapse?

Much as so many women in the Tower failed to see how entirely normal Egwene's suggested course of action to heal the Tower was. And so, I too praise Elayne for making these decisions that expedited her ascension to the Lion Throne.
But NEITHER is a good reason! That is NOT a reason to claim she should have the Lion Throne! A common sense notion is NOT grounds for claiming she's a suitable or great ruler.

Also, I think you praised Elayne for not running back to the palace and instead using her rescue force to encircle Arymilla? That is a tactical decision that requires no great thought. Anyone whose primary priority was success in the quest for the throne would have suggested that.
Assuming they were capable of analyzing that datum in seconds after being released from physically stressful captivity following a sleepless night, and recalling another datum that informed Elayne on the appropriate course of action. Birgitte was not opposed to that tactical idea, she was just not bright ennough to realize where Arymilla would be. Anyone would have realized the best thing to do is strike at her, as Elayne stated earlier, when she claimed that was the only information about Arymilla she was interested in. Despite Birgitte & Dyelin being told about the attack on the gate, neither one of them made the connection. Elayne did, which is how she knew what to do. If Arymilla had NOT been with that force, it would NOT have been an obvious tactical move! The smartest thing to do would have been to bring her force to aid Dyelin in holding the gate, but that would have allowed Arymilla & co to retreat to safety when her forces failed to take the gate. The flanking attack was only an "obvious" manuever once Elayne put all the data together.

And it does NOT make her a good ruler, nor did I ever claim it DID! I cited it to refute a claim of her military ineptitude! All I did was say that she did NOT screw up the military situation!

Birgette did not because she saw protecting Elayne as the primary priority.
Egwene too has done many things that any Aes Sedai could have. But they did not, caught up in tradition or pride or the nets of the Shadow. And she had some of these issues too, but overcame them and rose to the challenge, undoing Mesaana's work and saving the Tower from complete disaster in the hands of the Seanchan.
She did no such thing. All she did was skew the casualties slightly more towards the Tower's favor. The disaster still happened and the extent to which the Tower did NOT go down to total defeat was due entirely to the limitations the Seanchan imposed on themselves. She did not drive them away, they never had any intention of staying. She did not prevent them from getting a damane with knowledge of Traveling (not that she could have, nor is it her fault). She did not avert any disaster, aside from a few more losses on the Tower's part or a few less losses on that of the Seanchan.

It seems to me more like you think Egwene's cause is less worthy than the others, thus her achievements are inherently cheaper, in your eyes.
"So you can see some things, if you are led by the hand." (I don't have aCoS handy, so I might be misquoting Moridin)

While it is a whole other debate whether the Aes Sedai are worth the effort of saving, the point remains that Egwene has done a good job of ending strife within this organization. We shall see how she wields its power now.
I would actually contend that choosing to devote herself to the good of this wretched group condemns Egwene. A recurring theme in my "Egwene's evil" series was her siding with these pathetic, idiotic, blind, prejudiced and common-senseless wastes of life over her friends and the Dragon Reborn.
Cannoli
“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Inde muagdhe Aes Sedai misain ye!
Deus Vult!
*MySmiley*
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Well Brandon Sanderson has officially killed off the last volume of the Epic Saga of the Chosen One. - 30/10/2009 02:36:19 AM 2373 Views
Life in unfair, just let Egwene have it already. - 30/10/2009 03:11:04 AM 786 Views
I skimmed cannoli's predictable rant. I disagree. I LOVED EVERY CHAPTER! - 30/10/2009 03:29:24 AM 724 Views
Agreed! *NM* - 30/10/2009 03:47:52 AM 473 Views
I liked her chapters. Mainly because they gave her something to do. - 30/10/2009 09:43:58 PM 652 Views
I adore Brandon Sanderson. - 30/10/2009 05:05:11 AM 773 Views
Me too - 30/10/2009 10:38:52 AM 823 Views
Exactly. - 30/10/2009 04:33:11 PM 658 Views
Re: I adore Brandon Sanderson. - 30/10/2009 02:45:03 PM 808 Views
Re: I adore Brandon Sanderson. - 30/10/2009 04:34:53 PM 673 Views
I think he meant Cannoli, not you, Seriana. *NM* - 30/10/2009 05:30:17 PM 398 Views
Ahhh. - 30/10/2009 09:15:14 PM 651 Views
Re: Ahhh. - 31/10/2009 03:51:14 AM 650 Views
Re: Ahhh. - 01/11/2009 06:37:41 AM 672 Views
Ditto. Thought he was a breath of fresh air to the series. - 30/10/2009 03:27:43 PM 653 Views
If renewal means someone grossly unfamiliar with the series, sure. - 30/10/2009 06:26:19 PM 1176 Views
Everything up to tGS - 30/10/2009 06:25:28 PM 864 Views
Re: Everything up to tGS - 30/10/2009 08:21:33 PM 853 Views
What on earth makes you think I dislike it? - 31/10/2009 05:25:07 AM 762 Views
General impression lately I guess. - 31/10/2009 04:38:29 PM 698 Views
Re: General impression lately I guess. - 31/10/2009 10:41:06 PM 683 Views
Thanks. - 01/11/2009 06:32:12 AM 762 Views
double post, hate my computer. - 30/10/2009 08:24:12 PM 759 Views
Don't agree completely but what I do want to see is - 30/10/2009 07:12:54 AM 701 Views
so I guess ... - 30/10/2009 02:48:10 PM 853 Views
You want a friend like Mat - 30/10/2009 06:33:47 PM 674 Views
might I add.. - 30/10/2009 08:30:24 AM 622 Views
Re: might I add.. - 30/10/2009 10:41:39 AM 712 Views
Re: might I add.. - 30/10/2009 06:47:17 PM 726 Views
There is a difference between defending your home from attack - 31/10/2009 03:34:57 PM 636 Views
I sit somewhere in the middle, she's improved, but still many flaws - 30/10/2009 11:35:47 AM 709 Views
Like others don't have flaws? - 30/10/2009 02:58:08 PM 687 Views
EVERYTHING is handed to her on a platter! - 30/10/2009 06:41:02 PM 718 Views
Touched a nerve did I? - 30/10/2009 07:19:00 PM 830 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 30/10/2009 07:24:41 PM 732 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 30/10/2009 07:31:14 PM 787 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 31/10/2009 06:36:33 AM 692 Views
Re: Touched a nerve did I? - 31/10/2009 09:33:34 AM 693 Views
And you aren't? - 01/11/2009 12:42:50 AM 673 Views
Seems to me you're both right. - 01/11/2009 07:45:12 PM 637 Views
Bah - 30/10/2009 03:36:42 PM 746 Views
wait a sec... - 30/10/2009 04:31:56 PM 799 Views
Now now! Let's take off the rose-tinted glasses for a minute. - 30/10/2009 05:21:07 PM 638 Views
Re: Bah - 30/10/2009 06:49:47 PM 765 Views
Rant on! Rant on! - 30/10/2009 12:54:16 PM 614 Views
Re: Rant on! Rant on! - 30/10/2009 03:18:44 PM 681 Views
A personal question: Cannoli, are you threatened by a powerful woman? - 30/10/2009 07:13:30 PM 744 Views
Obviously. - 31/10/2009 05:37:52 AM 630 Views
Well... - 31/10/2009 05:56:56 AM 595 Views
Countries are real, normal and natural things. The White Tower has no proven value. - 31/10/2009 06:52:48 AM 678 Views
Tar Valon is a nation - 31/10/2009 09:20:43 AM 670 Views
The "Elaida's election was illegal because of Black Ajah Sitters" is really an absurd argument - 01/11/2009 12:06:32 AM 691 Views
It wasn't absurd. Just clever... - 01/11/2009 03:33:22 AM 724 Views
I wasn't saying the rebels had no cause for rebellion. Just that the election *was* legal. - 01/11/2009 10:38:59 AM 748 Views
Hmm..... - 06/11/2009 04:18:14 PM 595 Views
I take it she'll carefully avoid bringing up the war vote, then. *NM* - 08/11/2009 12:47:21 AM 276 Views
Not a problem... - 08/11/2009 06:17:39 AM 663 Views
Are you blinded by a pair of teats? - 31/10/2009 07:17:44 AM 838 Views
Re: Well Brandon Sanderson has officially killed off the last volume of the Epic Saga of the Chosen - 30/10/2009 11:38:24 PM 769 Views
The harbor chain incident was no less stupid because it helped her - 31/10/2009 05:40:20 AM 608 Views
It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats. - 31/10/2009 07:18:42 AM 750 Views
*snort* *NM* - 31/10/2009 07:19:49 AM 408 Views
Re: It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats. - 31/10/2009 09:28:16 AM 732 Views
Don't expect rationality from Cannoli... - 31/10/2009 02:01:45 PM 792 Views
Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 01/11/2009 01:07:06 AM 760 Views
Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 01/11/2009 04:30:21 AM 765 Views
Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 01/11/2009 08:41:58 AM 710 Views
Re: Or logical trains of thought from fionwe1987.... - 05/11/2009 02:40:16 AM 679 Views
Re: It must be embarassing to be on the same side as such dingbats. - 01/11/2009 12:31:10 AM 662 Views
I have one question - 01/11/2009 07:12:23 AM 698 Views
Capture, NOT kill, and she herself said the sa'angreal made that impossible. - 01/11/2009 07:59:44 AM 681 Views
Capture OR kill - 01/11/2009 09:12:08 AM 738 Views
Egwene isn't ta'veren - 31/10/2009 05:57:54 AM 652 Views
Re: Egwene isn't ta'veren - 31/10/2009 11:01:54 AM 630 Views
Events do seem to suggest otherwise. *NM* - 31/10/2009 04:40:42 PM 417 Views
I see Cannoll is still going strong about Egwene... - 01/11/2009 08:40:17 PM 694 Views
There were a few instances in the book where Egwene really bothered me. - 02/11/2009 12:54:10 AM 645 Views
Egwene's always been a hypocrite - 02/11/2009 02:06:58 PM 842 Views

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