Active Users:462 Time:18/09/2025 11:34:01 PM
Then maybe we just have different standards. redhand Send a noteboard - 14/11/2009 11:56:02 AM
but if he actually destroied the borderland army or seanchan civilians in cold blood, he would have. Then he would not be redeemable in the end.
Yes he would, because those actions would still not be all that bad. He already made a conscious and deliberate decision to do those things. My point was that they are not that bad. He was not trying to kill civilians, they would have been collateral damage with the leadership.

To me, considering to do it does not yet count. Actually doing it will. My bigger question is when the leadership may be separated from the civilians. In other words, are there salvageable parts under the technology in consideration.


The purpose of war is to render your enemy incapable to fight any more, not genecide.
Genocide makes him unable to fight anymore. Even in WoT, dead people don't fight. QED. And that might be the purpose of war in some anti-war textbook, but the REAL purpose of war is force your enemy to do what you want. "War is politics by other means." You fight to make an enemy do what you want, regardless of the capability he possesses to fight. If he chooses to withdraw from the territory you want with his soldiers intact, you are not obligated to pursue until he can't fight anymore. If he is unable to fight anymore, but refuses to acede to your demands, you have a perfect right to keep going, assuming you had a good reason for fighting in the first place. Suppose France & Britain had invaded Germany after Germany invaded Poland in 1939, attacked and fought hard, smashed the German Army, and rendered it unable to fight. If the Germans still refused to withdraw from Poland, the Western Allies would have had a perfect right to keep on going until they did get that! No rule of war or morality would require them to turn around and leave just because the German army was hors de combat.

If you have no way to separate the leadership from the soldiers, you have to regard whoever you kill as collateral damage. I don't disagree. But if your technology allows you to do so, and you choose to destroy the leadership together with the civilians, I have a problem with that.

While the war is indeed politics by other means, what is the intended politics? The politics could be genecide. If that is the case, there is no collateral damage, as everyone is an intended target. I think the politics here is not that.

In the same WWII example, do you have a way to separate the German people from its leadership? A change of German government should be able to do it. If on the other hand, Poland were invaded by Martians, and we have no technology allowing us to make a change to Martian government, then we will have to kill every Martian as collateral damage.

On a deeper level, if the politics is "never cooperate with the Germans", we will kill all of them even if we had the technology allowing a change in German government.

Soldiers become civilians when they are separated from the leadership. Sometimes, you have no way to separate them. But not always.

If the underlying politics is "we wish to cooperate with you under a differnt set of circumstances", the politics demand an effort to separate those who should not be killed.

When Rand was using the CK in his insanity, he is just too powerful, and I am not sure he is even capable of pursuing a politics of cooperation at all. It is too blunt an instrument and effectively, his politics is reduced to "to genecide or not".
Reply to message
Rand is NOT evil in tGS, nor does he do any evil - 14/11/2009 12:26:27 AM 1373 Views
That is nonsense... - 14/11/2009 12:47:22 AM 760 Views
Re: That is nonsense... - 14/11/2009 05:30:01 AM 642 Views
So what? - 14/11/2009 09:28:49 AM 708 Views
Re: So what? - 15/11/2009 12:17:54 AM 645 Views
Laughable - 15/11/2009 03:36:36 PM 595 Views
Chasing you with an army is not hostile? - 19/11/2009 12:59:52 AM 510 Views
Sorry... gotta disagree. - 14/11/2009 01:09:30 AM 685 Views
Re: Sorry... gotta disagree. - 14/11/2009 03:49:49 AM 635 Views
Even if it's not thousands of lives. Stalin got it right. - 14/11/2009 05:33:05 AM 506 Views
I think the thousands would disagree - as would the one. *NM* - 25/11/2009 08:19:47 AM 239 Views
Mad, threatening, bad-tempered and cold, but not evil... - 14/11/2009 01:43:12 AM 617 Views
I disagree with prety much everything - 14/11/2009 03:10:12 AM 616 Views
Re: I disagree with prety much everything - 14/11/2009 05:45:14 AM 681 Views
Why in the world is quantity irrelevant? - 14/11/2009 06:01:13 AM 463 Views
A murderer is evil. What difference does it make how many? That's just degrees. There's no OK number - 14/11/2009 07:22:47 AM 545 Views
Ok, let's take this a step further - 14/11/2009 09:45:50 PM 502 Views
Re: Ok, let's take this a step further - 15/11/2009 12:23:05 AM 599 Views
Tried AGAIN? Serial killing indicates a tendancy. - 25/11/2009 08:23:39 AM 505 Views
Re: I disagree with prety much everything - 14/11/2009 04:35:27 PM 655 Views
I think you're confusing "evil" with "risky" - 15/11/2009 12:48:21 AM 643 Views
Re: I disagree with prety much everything - 15/11/2009 07:04:16 AM 542 Views
Rand has not yet crossed the moral event horizon of no return, - 14/11/2009 03:27:22 AM 600 Views
Then he already passed the horizon by your reckoning. He DID choose to do those things. - 14/11/2009 07:45:46 AM 685 Views
Then maybe we just have different standards. - 14/11/2009 11:56:02 AM 657 Views
What Rand did that was evil. - 14/11/2009 04:06:17 AM 601 Views
I don't see Arad Doman - 14/11/2009 04:57:20 AM 504 Views
Take up the Dragon's burden... - 14/11/2009 07:56:46 AM 704 Views
A wonderful commentary on 'nation building' too, I suppose - 14/11/2009 08:22:46 AM 694 Views
Priorities. - 14/11/2009 07:52:06 AM 669 Views
Perhaps - 14/11/2009 09:43:51 PM 694 Views
Re: Perhaps - 24/11/2009 08:28:56 PM 613 Views
I don't think he was evil - 14/11/2009 08:10:56 AM 634 Views

Reply to Message