Active Users:360 Time:04/07/2025 09:42:41 PM
Why do you keep bringing up genocide? Rand was not doing that. Cannoli Send a noteboard - 15/11/2009 01:02:23 AM
If you have no way to separate the leadership from the soldiers, you have to regard whoever you kill as collateral damage. I don't disagree. But if your technology allows you to do so, and you choose to destroy the leadership together with the civilians, I have a problem with that.
Rand doesn't unless you want him to hunt down the generals and so forth one at a time. Besides, every bit of info so far states that the regime is a popular one. The people support the invasion of the Seanchan and are behing their leaders.

While the war is indeed politics by other means, what is the intended politics? The politics could be genecide. If that is the case, there is no collateral damage, as everyone is an intended target. I think the politics here is not that.
No, the politics of the situation is "stop trying to conquer my homeland and my allies while I am trying to save us from the Dark One, you included!" He was not even trying to stop them for good, just get them to stop until the Dark One is taken care of.

In the same WWII example, do you have a way to separate the German people from its leadership? A change of German government should be able to do it.
And every attempt from within Germany was ignored or rebuffed by the Allies.
If on the other hand, Poland were invaded by Martians, and we have no technology allowing us to make a change to Martian government, then we will have to kill every Martian as collateral damage.
And the Seanchan are Martians. Their imported colonists and probably a good many of their conquered subjects would follow Galgan if Fortuona was killed, and applaud his continuation of the same policies.

On a deeper level, if the politics is "never cooperate with the Germans", we will kill all of them even if we had the technology allowing a change in German government.
We did. We basically fought the war in the interests of the Soviet Union, which did not include an existing Germany.

Soldiers become civilians when they are separated from the leadership. Sometimes, you have no way to separate them. But not always.
But that's the case here. And that definition is facile and dishonest, because it presumes opposition to their leader's policies on the soldiers' parts, when in fact, the Seanchan soldiers are, for the most part, co-conspirators.

If the underlying politics is "we wish to cooperate with you under a differnt set of circumstances", the politics demand an effort to separate those who should not be killed.
So what? None of this has ANY bearing on the Seanchan OR the Borderlanders. By every indicator available, the common soldiers of the Borderlands and the Seanchan soldiers and local auxiliaries are all supporters and willing followers of their leaders. They go along with the plans and acts that justify killing their leaders, but they get off scot-free simply because they were not consulted about the decision which they nevertheless agree with and support?

When Rand was using the CK in his insanity, he is just too powerful, and I am not sure he is even capable of pursuing a politics of cooperation at all. It is too blunt an instrument and effectively, his politics is reduced to "to genecide or not".
Well he is overdoing it with the power and realizes this, which is why he gives it up, but in no case does he ever contemplate genocide. He simply wishes to remove the hostile elements that are bedeviling him.
Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!
Reply to message
Rand is NOT evil in tGS, nor does he do any evil - 14/11/2009 12:26:27 AM 1350 Views
That is nonsense... - 14/11/2009 12:47:22 AM 740 Views
Re: That is nonsense... - 14/11/2009 05:30:01 AM 623 Views
So what? - 14/11/2009 09:28:49 AM 687 Views
Re: So what? - 15/11/2009 12:17:54 AM 622 Views
Laughable - 15/11/2009 03:36:36 PM 572 Views
Chasing you with an army is not hostile? - 19/11/2009 12:59:52 AM 489 Views
Sorry... gotta disagree. - 14/11/2009 01:09:30 AM 662 Views
Re: Sorry... gotta disagree. - 14/11/2009 03:49:49 AM 612 Views
Even if it's not thousands of lives. Stalin got it right. - 14/11/2009 05:33:05 AM 484 Views
I think the thousands would disagree - as would the one. *NM* - 25/11/2009 08:19:47 AM 231 Views
Mad, threatening, bad-tempered and cold, but not evil... - 14/11/2009 01:43:12 AM 592 Views
I disagree with prety much everything - 14/11/2009 03:10:12 AM 591 Views
Re: I disagree with prety much everything - 14/11/2009 05:45:14 AM 658 Views
Why in the world is quantity irrelevant? - 14/11/2009 06:01:13 AM 446 Views
A murderer is evil. What difference does it make how many? That's just degrees. There's no OK number - 14/11/2009 07:22:47 AM 526 Views
Ok, let's take this a step further - 14/11/2009 09:45:50 PM 480 Views
Re: Ok, let's take this a step further - 15/11/2009 12:23:05 AM 582 Views
Tried AGAIN? Serial killing indicates a tendancy. - 25/11/2009 08:23:39 AM 481 Views
Re: I disagree with prety much everything - 14/11/2009 04:35:27 PM 633 Views
I think you're confusing "evil" with "risky" - 15/11/2009 12:48:21 AM 623 Views
Re: I disagree with prety much everything - 15/11/2009 07:04:16 AM 523 Views
Rand has not yet crossed the moral event horizon of no return, - 14/11/2009 03:27:22 AM 573 Views
Then he already passed the horizon by your reckoning. He DID choose to do those things. - 14/11/2009 07:45:46 AM 663 Views
Then maybe we just have different standards. - 14/11/2009 11:56:02 AM 633 Views
Why do you keep bringing up genocide? Rand was not doing that. - 15/11/2009 01:02:23 AM 650 Views
What Rand did that was evil. - 14/11/2009 04:06:17 AM 575 Views
I don't see Arad Doman - 14/11/2009 04:57:20 AM 480 Views
Take up the Dragon's burden... - 14/11/2009 07:56:46 AM 682 Views
A wonderful commentary on 'nation building' too, I suppose - 14/11/2009 08:22:46 AM 673 Views
Priorities. - 14/11/2009 07:52:06 AM 647 Views
Perhaps - 14/11/2009 09:43:51 PM 673 Views
Re: Perhaps - 24/11/2009 08:28:56 PM 593 Views
I don't think he was evil - 14/11/2009 08:10:56 AM 614 Views

Reply to Message