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Males likely go like this... Shannow Send a noteboard - 18/11/2009 08:27:27 PM

Sammael is one of the top 6 Forsaken. Rahvin is not.

Sammael matches Rand's strength at a later stage than Rahvin did.

Rahvin also acknowledges in Book 5 that Sammael is AT LEAST as strong as he is.

Personally, I think that Moridin's casual comment has been taken WAY out of context, by people trying to justify Graendal's strength.

Moridin simply ackonwledged that One Power battles are unpredictable, and that anything was possible. If Graendal struck faster than Sammael, then his greater strength would mean nothing.


You're probably right then about Sammael compared to Rahvin, but there is room for debate on that point mainly because Rand had an angreal, but Rahvin had knowledge of Tel'aran'rhiod (and help from Graendal).

I still think that there is no debating that Graendal is AT THE VERY LEAST on level 5 of the women. If you want to put Sammael on level four of the men, then we can do that, but somebody has to fill levels 2 and 3. I'm willing to put Sammael plus or minus one level on the male scale as compared to Graendal on the women scale. But it wouldn't make sense for Sammael to be on level 3 on the men because that would not make sense with Moridin's comment. Somebody has to fill the male level 3 if it isn't Sammael. Possibly Be'lal? The guide does say Be'lal surpassed both Rahvin and Sammael in strength...maybe it meant one power strength all along and not just political maneuvering.

Possibly it goes like this:

100 - Rand / Ishamael
95 - Aginor / Demandred
90 - Be'lal
85 - Sammael / Rahvin option 1 / Balthamel option 1
80 - Rahvin option 2 / Balthamel option 2
75 - Asmodean



Ishamael
Demandred/Aginor
Sammael
Rahvin
Balthamel/Be'lal
Asmodean

Be'lal wasn't one of the top 6. And supposedly he was this great politician and manipulator. Now RJ said the top 6 were the best at personal survival - both physically and politically.

So if Be'lal was so great politically, he must have been very weak in the Power not to be in the top 6. He is also known as the Envious, for envying those with greater strength.
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Thanks to Sanderson, we now have a DEFINITIVE female Forsaken strength list... - 18/11/2009 05:56:58 PM 2497 Views
Sounds good - 18/11/2009 06:08:15 PM 1325 Views
Re: Sounds good - 18/11/2009 06:12:53 PM 1449 Views
Re: Someryn - 18/11/2009 06:20:44 PM 1435 Views
I acknowledge that possibility... - 18/11/2009 06:24:30 PM 1304 Views
Someryn implies that Graendal is stronger. - 19/11/2009 01:51:31 PM 1401 Views
Excellent point...I'd forgotten about that... - 19/11/2009 02:00:30 PM 1327 Views
As I understand it... - 18/11/2009 06:23:26 PM 1390 Views
My view is that the new list is just a revised one, after RJ changed his mind on some things... - 18/11/2009 06:28:53 PM 1461 Views
Agreed. - 18/11/2009 06:31:22 PM 1248 Views
I suppose that's possible. *NM* - 18/11/2009 06:31:42 PM 1081 Views
I agree with this interpretation on the new vs. old list - 18/11/2009 07:13:02 PM 1365 Views
Re: Sounds good - 18/11/2009 07:11:17 PM 1216 Views
Also, a couple more questions, if I may... - 18/11/2009 07:18:50 PM 1253 Views
Re: Also, a couple more questions, if I may... - 18/11/2009 07:23:45 PM 1295 Views
One problem... - 18/11/2009 06:10:06 PM 1427 Views
No... - 18/11/2009 06:14:48 PM 1326 Views
That's not a problem. - 18/11/2009 06:31:37 PM 1283 Views
Why on earth would there be multiple restrictions on Cyndane's strength? - 18/11/2009 06:47:56 PM 1191 Views
Sorry buddy - 18/11/2009 07:36:00 PM 1285 Views
Re: Sorry buddy - 18/11/2009 09:49:01 PM 1252 Views
But Nynaeve and Mogheiden were of equal strength - 18/11/2009 06:15:52 PM 1484 Views
Nynaeve matched Moghedien when Nynaeve was not close to her full potential yet... - 18/11/2009 06:19:07 PM 1521 Views
I agree...and I have a question regarding Moghedien. - 18/11/2009 06:30:07 PM 1336 Views
Cyndane has to be above Graendal. *NM* - 18/11/2009 06:33:16 PM 709 Views
You're right. I'll post new list below. *NM* - 18/11/2009 06:39:36 PM 728 Views
Was she? Nyn was mid20s and a wilder, I thought she had reached full strength - 18/11/2009 08:00:24 PM 1363 Views
She really hasn't had that much time channelling though. - 18/11/2009 08:07:31 PM 1015 Views
Wilders rarely reach their full potential if they're blocked. *NM* - 18/11/2009 08:43:30 PM 763 Views
I know the Cleansing forced her a bit. - 18/11/2009 08:44:59 PM 1295 Views
That's been said before- anyone know where it says that in the text? - 19/11/2009 05:53:50 AM 1097 Views
More or less agreed. I was right about Nynaeve! - 18/11/2009 06:29:27 PM 1236 Views
IMO... - 18/11/2009 06:37:19 PM 1367 Views
I don't know... - 18/11/2009 06:56:10 PM 1254 Views
I still think Alivia is below Lanfear's strength level... - 18/11/2009 06:59:01 PM 1549 Views
That just doesn't make sense... - 18/11/2009 07:02:17 PM 1333 Views
I agree that Lanfear and Alivia are tied. *NM* - 18/11/2009 07:06:19 PM 723 Views
All of my instincts indeed argue that 4 of the Forsaken CANNOT be below Nynaeve, but... - 18/11/2009 07:06:25 PM 1203 Views
But why doesn't it make sense? - 18/11/2009 08:47:42 PM 1072 Views
I don't think... - 18/11/2009 07:08:09 PM 1409 Views
Damane never recieve special status... - 18/11/2009 08:52:32 PM 1241 Views
Good point... - 18/11/2009 09:00:51 PM 1254 Views
Thing is... - 18/11/2009 09:10:45 PM 1281 Views
My point was... - 18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM 1260 Views
I agree *NM* - 18/11/2009 09:10:46 PM 683 Views
If Tuon had the strongest... - 18/11/2009 09:12:22 PM 1192 Views
Sera must be stronger... - 18/11/2009 09:25:00 PM 1215 Views
There's no reason to be certain about it... - 18/11/2009 09:28:26 PM 1256 Views
Well, the Bloodknives are precisely Tuon's tools - 18/11/2009 09:32:46 PM 1192 Views
There are SIX women stronger than Nynaeve, and at least five are accounted for... - 18/11/2009 09:46:28 PM 1259 Views
There are six stronger women named on the list - 19/11/2009 11:40:52 AM 1271 Views
I'm not ignoring Sera! - 19/11/2009 06:13:43 PM 1126 Views
You misunderstand me... - 19/11/2009 06:16:31 PM 1188 Views
I doesn't make "sense". Let's leave it... - 19/11/2009 06:19:52 PM 1173 Views
But Alivia (while strong in the OP) is an old fraile lady on her deathbed. *NM* - 18/11/2009 09:41:33 PM 783 Views
Pardon? Don't understand this really. *NM* - 19/11/2009 11:45:21 AM 568 Views
You keep saying Alivia was "a common damane" - 28/11/2009 08:58:42 PM 1040 Views
You were right about Nynaeve, I was right about Graendal! Well done! - 18/11/2009 06:37:42 PM 1335 Views
Yes. This is one WoT debate coming to a close... - 18/11/2009 06:54:06 PM 1098 Views
I have one problem with your list. - 18/11/2009 06:36:02 PM 1289 Views
RJ said the Forsaken ALWAYS overrate themselves... - 18/11/2009 06:54:45 PM 1153 Views
Mesaana is cold and calculating. - 18/11/2009 07:03:49 PM 1229 Views
I'm sorry, but I find it mindblowing that you find this mindblowing. - 18/11/2009 06:36:37 PM 1255 Views
Some of us have been debating this for 5 years on Wotmania... - 18/11/2009 06:57:08 PM 1288 Views
I think it goes like this: - 18/11/2009 06:53:07 PM 1271 Views
There is a side effect to all of this rearrangement...we may have to rethink the wonder girls. - 18/11/2009 07:04:17 PM 1292 Views
We'll have to re-read the sections where Moghedien is captured. - 18/11/2009 07:08:07 PM 1192 Views
Damn. That's a thought I definitely DON'T relish. Thankfully... - 18/11/2009 07:09:18 PM 1250 Views
Where does she say this? - 18/11/2009 08:54:39 PM 1234 Views
No, she explicitly refers to herself vs Moghedien... - 18/11/2009 09:01:53 PM 1236 Views
Here are the quotes... - 18/11/2009 09:24:24 PM 1288 Views
Oh come on. You're totally twisting that passage to suit your argument... - 18/11/2009 09:54:56 PM 1161 Views
I could say the same... - 18/11/2009 10:50:44 PM 1170 Views
So let me get this straight... - 19/11/2009 06:44:03 AM 1210 Views
No... - 19/11/2009 07:37:29 AM 1236 Views
Look at it this way... - 19/11/2009 10:23:06 AM 1194 Views
Dude, there were other quotes... - 19/11/2009 06:15:32 PM 1113 Views
What about Sammael? The debate about Sammael and Rahvin has been decided now too. - 18/11/2009 08:03:35 PM 1320 Views
Totally disagree... - 18/11/2009 08:08:34 PM 1328 Views
Re: Totally disagree... - 18/11/2009 08:22:07 PM 1214 Views
Males likely go like this... - 18/11/2009 08:27:27 PM 1195 Views
Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal... - 18/11/2009 09:05:28 PM 1206 Views
Disagree... - 18/11/2009 09:09:45 PM 1266 Views
Disagree back... for the last time though... - 18/11/2009 09:39:25 PM 1142 Views
About the top 6... - 18/11/2009 10:08:37 PM 1222 Views
And One Power Battles turn political on a regualr basis, do they? - 18/11/2009 10:54:35 PM 1274 Views
That's ridiculous... - 19/11/2009 07:19:08 AM 1157 Views
Re: That's ridiculous... - 19/11/2009 08:08:14 AM 1193 Views
Well... - 19/11/2009 10:29:45 AM 1216 Views
This is getting idiotic... - 19/11/2009 06:19:08 PM 1200 Views
Re: Dude, Rand is scared of Graendal... - 10/12/2010 07:31:18 PM 1196 Views
If Rahvin were stronger... - 18/11/2009 08:59:32 PM 1155 Views
Disagreement - 19/11/2009 01:39:49 AM 1292 Views
Some more from Brandon... - 19/11/2009 04:29:41 AM 1192 Views
So we're back where we started? - 19/11/2009 04:56:36 AM 990 Views
Re: So we're back where we started? - 19/11/2009 05:18:15 AM 1295 Views
Someone must ask him: Is Cyndane one of the 6 above Nynaeve. - 19/11/2009 05:35:10 AM 1153 Views
My opinion: down this path lies insanity. - 19/11/2009 02:53:59 PM 1252 Views
Thoughts - 19/11/2009 04:55:09 AM 1323 Views

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