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Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear? fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM
You can disagree all you want, but until you can show a model that works with all of the quotes from RJ, the various quotes in the books, that works within a bell curve your "preposterous" proclamations are pretty much as ridiculous as you think my assertion that Egwene could be 80% the Strength of Lanfear.

Do you have a quote saying "Egwene is only 30% of Lanfear" ... didn't think so ...

As for what I have forgotten in Male v. Female strength ... go re-read my post! I state outright that a woman has less raw strength than a man at the same effective level. I also show you flat out that Moiraine and Romanda combined do not equal Rand, in fact they don't even equal Lanfear when linked as there is a penalty in raw strength when linked... it would take 3 women of Moiraine's level to approximate Rand's raw strength and even then it would be a close call ... this is supported by the text as 6 much less powerful sisters hold Rand with no problem ... in fact it's not until the active link is down to 3 AS that he can break the shield.

Show me where in the text that Lanfear is so much stronger than Semirhage... she is held by 3 AS who are MUCH weaker than Egwene, Romanda or Lelaine... Daigian is less than 1/3 of Romanda and the shield is still too much for Semirhage.

Lanfear is as effective as Rand, that does not make her as Strong as he is ... but it's clear you didn't read it so I'm not even going to bother with further responding to what you think I said.


You cannot say Egwene, Lelaine and Romanda need to match Rand's RAW strength to equal him, while Lanfear simply needs to meet his effective strength to equal him.

So you say Rand has a raw strength of 500.
Then you say Egwene + Lelaine + Romanda = 320+200+200 = 720. That's 50% stronger than Rand. Even if you take 10% off for the linking loss, they're still on about 650 vs. Rand's 500.

And then you still have to take into account the females dexterity advantage, which means that in terms of EFFECTIVE strength, Rand is only a 400 on your list. Therefore, you have Egwene, Romanda and Lelaine on 650, an Rand on 400. They would totally destroy Rand or any male channeler if that was the strength difference between them.

In fact, even if you just took Egwene plus Romanda, that would equal 320+200= 520. Take away the 10% linking loss and you're sitting on 470 EFFECTIVE strength. And due to the males dexterity disadvantage, it means that Rand's RAW 500 is actually equivalent to only 400 on the female scale. Meaning that Egwene pus Romanada on 470 are 20% stronger than Rand.

You are inconsistent in your application of the data, in order to MAKE your list fit the evidence.

How can you say Lanfear on 400 is comparable to Rand on 500 due to her dexterity advantage, but Egwene, Romanda and Lelaine need to be compared to Rand's RAW strength, with the female dexterity advantage suddenly ignored?

The bottomline is that if it takes Egwene plus Romanda plus Lelaine to match a male Forsaken, it should take Egwene plus Romanda plus Lelaine to match Lanfear as well.

And since Egwene plus Lelaine plus Romanda are around 700 in strength, together, they are vastly stronger than Lanfear who is on 400. This is not supported by the evidence in the books. In fact, it contradicts it.

Instead, you should put Egwene at around 50% of Lanfear's strength, and Romanda and Lelaine each at around 30% of Lanfear's strength. That would make everything fit perfectly, because then Egwene plus Romanda plus Lelain would - on the 100 point scale - equal 50+30+30 = 110, and after the linking loss they would be very close to Lanfear's strength.

On your strange 400 point scale, you then multiply the above by 4 to get to 440 vs Lanfear's 400, and after the linking loss you'd be at around 390 for Egwene's circle vs Lanfear's 400.

THAT fits the evidence. Not a scale where Egwene and Moiraine/Lelaine/Romanda are vastly exaggerated in strength as you are trying to claim.

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I've been playing with some numbers since we've been having all of these OP strength debates darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 06:34:05 PM 1458 Views
There are 21 levels, not 100. More later. *NM* fionwe1987 - 20/12/2009 07:23:18 PM 541 Views
RJ has said a number of times that the 21 level scale darius_sedai - 20/12/2009 07:35:25 PM 838 Views
Few glaring errors... Shannow - 20/12/2009 09:04:55 PM 1031 Views
Re: Few glaring errors... darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 07:52:18 AM 979 Views
You don't get it, do you... Shannow - 21/12/2009 08:19:00 AM 952 Views
Didn't you claim that Eggy+Rom+Lel cannot match a male forsaken? Now they can match Lanfear? fionwe1987 - 21/12/2009 04:14:32 PM 831 Views
That only strengthens my point. Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:23:39 PM 880 Views
No it does not. fionwe1987 - 28/12/2009 02:45:42 AM 920 Views
What you are missing is that darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 06:46:04 PM 897 Views
I'm not missing it at all.. Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:58:04 PM 923 Views
Let's try matching that with the actual text darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 03:01:36 PM 890 Views
Not correct... Shannow - 22/12/2009 03:29:24 PM 970 Views
Believe as you like, I'm not here to convince you to otherwise, I'm stating how I read the evidence darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 06:01:24 PM 868 Views
You're reading the evidence wrong. Shannow - 22/12/2009 06:27:17 PM 867 Views
RJ also pointed out that Alivia's skill set as a weapon came in handy darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 07:40:35 PM 864 Views
I thought a power law distribution is much more likely, TBH redhand - 20/12/2009 09:39:21 PM 938 Views
Yes. It essentially refers to a skewed histogram - biased to the lower end of the range... Shannow - 20/12/2009 09:53:18 PM 960 Views
Corrections Shadowkiller - 21/12/2009 01:48:43 AM 998 Views
No... Shannow - 21/12/2009 07:47:58 AM 871 Views
True, the application of this model is inconsistent *NM* Shadowkiller - 21/12/2009 02:34:26 PM 656 Views
Not if you point out that the average AS is not as strong as the overall average channeler darius_sedai - 25/12/2009 04:30:17 AM 870 Views
yet RJ has said flat out that OP strength is on an Bell Curve. Meaning the majority of channelers darius_sedai - 21/12/2009 07:36:22 AM 841 Views
Perhaps... Phelix - 21/12/2009 07:52:13 AM 945 Views
I've always hated bell curves Ryan - 21/12/2009 03:56:26 PM 856 Views
The most logical answer is that the average AOL channeler was stronger than the current average... Shannow - 21/12/2009 06:36:07 PM 895 Views
and that in no way maps to any kind of Bell Curve darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 06:02:41 PM 738 Views
Why? Shannow - 22/12/2009 06:34:25 PM 888 Views
Can you provide the quote where RJ tells us the darius_sedai - 22/12/2009 07:45:04 PM 781 Views
Always go back to the evidence... Shannow - 22/12/2009 09:03:42 PM 934 Views
I'll respond when you can actually provide a few actual quotes to support any of this darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 03:20:44 PM 841 Views
Name an item you dispute and I will provide the quote.... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:19:49 PM 838 Views
it's addressed below darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:23:58 PM 840 Views
I've been looking into this a bit... and you really do overstate things to suit your arguments darius_sedai - 24/12/2009 06:15:44 PM 876 Views
And in looking for quotes for another thread I came across this gem darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 09:54:34 PM 852 Views
Nice! It proves what I've been saying for ages... fionwe1987 - 29/12/2009 10:13:41 PM 871 Views
Which is why I contend that they are about 80% of Lanfear darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 10:16:07 PM 872 Views
I wasn't trying to rip him a new one. Phelix - 22/12/2009 09:38:43 PM 767 Views
I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/12/2009 08:35:23 PM 907 Views
Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... Shannow - 22/12/2009 09:21:07 PM 892 Views
Re: Except that gateway size is used multiple times by characters to judge comparative strength... RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/12/2009 11:32:21 PM 996 Views
I agree that it's practically impossible to determine strength darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 03:19:49 PM 876 Views
How convenient. And by the way, it is NOT tied to a Talent. Anyone who is strong enough, can Travel. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 04:36:24 PM 485 Views
Seriously go re-read the series, how can you have missed that Traveling is a Talent? darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 04:54:51 PM 786 Views
It is a weave, the knowledge of which guarantees that you can use it, if you are strong enough... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:35:36 PM 877 Views
Yet every AS can Heal to a degree and Cloud Dancing involves weaves too darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:41:42 PM 905 Views
Lews Therin can't Heal. Aginor can't Heal. If you don't have the Talent, you can't do it. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:52:02 PM 505 Views
LTT and Aginor have "Little Ability" with Healing darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:02:13 PM 920 Views
Because the channelers THEMSELVES don't use Healing to judge each other's strength... Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:06:58 PM 836 Views
The Channelers state that there is a minimum level of strength to make the Weave work darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:11:55 PM 996 Views
Beonin's Gateway darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:30:25 PM 863 Views
No, it makes her 25% as strong as Rand! Thanks for proving my model to be virtually perfect! Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:36:53 PM 823 Views
Nope, Beonin shouldn't be that strong! darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:48:30 PM 803 Views
This is true, however... lyringlas - 23/12/2009 04:55:48 PM 922 Views
Aviendha's gateway size doesn't decrease. She is just less energy efficient in creating it... Shannow - 23/12/2009 05:30:17 PM 1240 Views
Aviendha is suffering from the second weave limitation darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 05:37:45 PM 966 Views
Conceded. My faulty memory is to blame in this case. But it doesn't change the rule... Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:01:33 PM 800 Views
I'll give you that there is a stength limitation to Traveling darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:06:41 PM 809 Views
Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:08:17 PM 455 Views
Re: Why do the characters in the books judge each other's strength on gateway size then? darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:20:18 PM 827 Views
And there you have it...Thank you. Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:27:24 PM 849 Views
And linked with Romanda and Lelaine darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:34:42 PM 834 Views
Sorry. That's pure speculation on your part. *NM* Shannow - 23/12/2009 06:38:43 PM 467 Views
No more than yours is! darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 06:49:57 PM 855 Views
That entire passage is in the context of strength... Shannow - 23/12/2009 07:55:50 PM 752 Views
You need to re-read some of this stuff darius_sedai - 23/12/2009 11:01:15 PM 938 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:38:43 PM 847 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population *NM* Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:41:01 PM 438 Views
Re: I don't think we have a representative sample of the mode in this population darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 06:37:50 PM 859 Views
Goodness Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:37:23 AM 865 Views
I'm working within the context of what we've been told by the author darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:43:31 AM 807 Views
Since you love Wiki so much darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:55:09 AM 813 Views
No you are not Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:58:28 AM 865 Views
Dude we're discussion works of fiction darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 04:08:12 AM 922 Views
Dumb Bell Distribution of Mongoloid Turings Abunderment - 31/12/2009 04:36:50 AM 953 Views
Back to school AS, and you will be able to do this Abunderment - 26/12/2009 12:34:39 PM 826 Views
The problem we're working with is that RJ says strength follows a Bell Curve distribution darius_sedai - 26/12/2009 03:29:26 PM 844 Views
And RJ knew his maths (and you don't) Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:22:09 AM 894 Views
I'm not the one who said OP strength followed a Bell Curve Distribution darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:34:55 AM 852 Views
You are the one who is MIS-USING his statement Abunderment - 31/12/2009 03:44:26 AM 835 Views
darius_sedai - 31/12/2009 03:48:20 AM 1116 Views
The pathos of Darius Abunderment - 31/12/2009 04:26:15 AM 878 Views
Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) knightmarea7x - 29/12/2009 12:46:13 AM 765 Views
Re: Is Lanfear the strongest?(now) darius_sedai - 29/12/2009 04:21:47 PM 846 Views
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