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I know... Etzel Send a noteboard - 14/01/2010 09:45:15 PM
BS's quotes suggest that there were only SH and Elza involved:

Q. "How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?"
A. "Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her."

We don't know how, but apparently SH gave Elza this knowledge, when she was made into his tool.

SH can't channel the One Power - further, he can't channel saidar. Thus he wouldn't be in a position to pass on any weaves from the Age of Legends. We didn't see any other Black Ajah members around, so it seems she was the only one available.

And:
Q: "You mention that Shaidar Haran has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?"
A: "Shaidar Haran needs a minion to most of his work for him. Elza was essential to Shaidar Haran in getting things done."

If Graendal (or one of Moridin's pets) was there, Elza certainly wouldn't be that essential for SH to getting things done. Graendal could have done everything even better than Elza.


Graendal might have been ordered to show Elza these weaves, but allowed to return to her palace since she had other important plots going on. Similar to how Semirhage was tasked with torturing and questioning an Aes Sedai named Cabriana Mecandes, so that Aran'gar would have a cover story, and then returned to Seanchan for her own mission.


But maybe SH can somehow give this knowledge as a certain gift? After all, the DO can give even more powerful gifts, as e.g. Slayer's abilities prove.
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Elza's Compulsion Sidious - 14/01/2010 08:41:04 PM 2185 Views
I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:12:05 PM 1105 Views
I disagree Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:27:27 PM 976 Views
except work with Semirhage! darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:34:37 PM 915 Views
Well... Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM 1064 Views
SH can't channel thus can't teach Elza anything *NM* darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 10:20:19 PM 380 Views
Yeah, but according to BS, he apparently could "give her the knowledge". *shrug* *NM* Etzel - 15/01/2010 07:16:22 AM 333 Views
that's your interpretation of the quote darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:58:30 PM 791 Views
This and the others quotes suggest that only SH and Elza were involved *NM* Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:51:24 AM 308 Views
As I said that's certainly one of of interpreting the quotes darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 03:46:55 PM 719 Views
The question is... Etzel - 16/01/2010 03:59:24 PM 736 Views
Re: The question is... darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:02:55 PM 729 Views
Yeah, as I said elsewhere, would be a nice question for BS, if there was another Forsaken. *NM* Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:08:05 PM 822 Views
I bet you anything he'd giva a big fat RAFO to that darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:08:58 PM 745 Views
BS spoke quite openly about this scene, though Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:16:09 PM 789 Views
always worth a try, but wasn't he asked to be less open recently? darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:31:54 PM 767 Views
Shaidar Haran can't channel. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/01/2010 09:34:51 PM 1121 Views
I know... Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:45:15 PM 956 Views
I agree with you, for a related but slightly different reason ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 09:58:28 PM 1047 Views
That doesn't prove anything... fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 10:07:46 PM 979 Views
It proves enough for me ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 10:26:28 PM 893 Views
Re: That doesn't prove anything... Sidious - 15/01/2010 11:03:05 AM 696 Views
not really darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:29:25 PM 745 Views
I don't understand your theory Sidious - 16/01/2010 05:08:03 PM 701 Views
It's very simple darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 06:17:36 PM 698 Views
So in other words Sidious - 17/01/2010 06:31:58 PM 814 Views
no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct darius_sedai - 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM 720 Views
Re: no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct Sidious - 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM 746 Views
I'm talking about implanting knowledge into someone elses head darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 05:37:32 AM 727 Views
Here's Brandon's one answer Sidious - 18/01/2010 05:20:20 PM 772 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 05:48:54 PM 735 Views
Exactly my point darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 06:24:25 PM 749 Views
But by this logic... Etzel - 18/01/2010 06:50:43 PM 696 Views
Yes... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 07:00:40 PM 739 Views
While you are right... Etzel - 18/01/2010 08:44:19 PM 731 Views
as we've discussed in another thread darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 09:08:56 PM 1134 Views
I mean... Etzel - 19/01/2010 02:21:39 PM 757 Views
Weren't they specifically called Weaves that haven't been seen since the AoL? darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 05:26:38 PM 762 Views
"Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves" is the quote. Etzel - 19/01/2010 06:14:22 PM 694 Views
Well if they were secret Ajah weaves someone would have recognized them *NM* darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 06:21:19 PM 327 Views
Maybe secret BA weaves... Etzel - 19/01/2010 06:37:42 PM 947 Views
Possible since she was the only BA in the area darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 06:40:38 PM 983 Views
See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM 828 Views
I have a hard time... Etzel - 19/01/2010 02:17:52 PM 814 Views
I agree with you Sidious - 19/01/2010 04:45:59 PM 768 Views
and you may very well be correct darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 05:39:02 PM 970 Views
Yet Rand/LTT tells us only a few chapters later darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 10:27:57 PM 801 Views
Anything is possible ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 10:54:46 PM 818 Views
who knows darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 11:21:43 PM 779 Views
It's not all that convoluted, though ... Shishka - 15/01/2010 03:26:01 PM 685 Views
Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:57:10 PM 874 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end Shishka - 15/01/2010 06:25:32 PM 758 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 06:44:26 PM 709 Views
Good point! Etzel - 15/01/2010 07:19:00 AM 803 Views
Re: Good point! Shishka - 15/01/2010 05:30:12 PM 701 Views
I agree Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:50:09 AM 679 Views
what doesn't make sense about this to me darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 06:04:45 PM 761 Views
Re: what doesn't make sense about this to me Shishka - 15/01/2010 06:29:59 PM 780 Views
this makes my head hurt ... or maybe all that red wine I drank last night is doing that darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM 751 Views
damn double posting darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 07:04:56 PM 690 Views
As it is often the case... Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:30:56 AM 786 Views
go re-read my statements and quit putting words in my mouth please. darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 03:59:52 PM 748 Views
Well... Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:14:28 PM 639 Views
as I said it's also possible that SH has new abilities darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:33:30 PM 691 Views
Re: I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/01/2010 09:30:53 PM 796 Views
Uhhh? fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 09:13:13 PM 995 Views
One point darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:20:09 PM 872 Views
Re: One point Oberonus - 14/01/2010 09:32:00 PM 811 Views
Elza truly believes that... fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 09:38:35 PM 810 Views
Elza "found a reason to follow the Compulsion" darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 11:23:33 PM 862 Views
So, it came from her, and would not go when the Compulsion was removed. Cannoli - 15/01/2010 05:56:32 AM 809 Views
fair enough darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:34:05 PM 836 Views
Not quite rAndy aL - 14/01/2010 09:38:45 PM 833 Views
But that could mean that they were to start the LB between Rand and the Great Lord immediately *NM* Voscaia Sedai - 16/01/2010 01:04:32 PM 327 Views
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