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Well... Etzel Send a noteboard - 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM
BS's quotes suggest that there were only SH and Elza involved:

Q. "How did Elza defeat the wards on Cadsuane's plain wooden box?"

A. "Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves, and in other ways made into a tool of Shaidar Haran. Not all of it was pleasant for her."

We don't know how, but apparently SH gave Elza this knowledge, when she was made into his tool.

That's a huge leap. We have zero evidence that SH would have any such ability! SH could have just taken his "pleasure" with her which as we saw from Mesaana, not pleasant.


BS's statement indicates that the knowledge came from SH (note that BS doesn't say that someone thought AoL weaves) during the process in which Elza became his tool. We really don't know what SH is capable of, but he certainly becomes more and more powerful.


And:

Q: "You mention that Shaidar Haran has quite a few limitations on his power. Can you give us a few concrete examples of these limitations?"

A: "Shaidar Haran needs a minion to most of his work for him. Elza was essential to Shaidar Haran in getting things done."

If Graendal (or one of Moridin's pets) was there, Elza certainly wouldn't be that essential for SH to getting things done. Graendal could have done everything even better than Elza.

Why, when they had a perfectly easy minion at hand, would they risk putting another FS woman in the room with Semi... who was also being tasked with getting back in S'T's good graces?

All I'm saying is that Graendal was the source of teaching Elza the weaves and detected her Compulsion (something SH has not been able to do in the past).


There was no need to teach Elza those things, if Graendal could fetch the Domination Band. Then she could give it Elza. However, that Elza was "essential", indicates that SH had no other minion - like e.g. Graendal - to use in this situation.
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Elza's Compulsion Sidious - 14/01/2010 08:41:04 PM 2108 Views
I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:12:05 PM 1033 Views
I disagree Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:27:27 PM 913 Views
except work with Semirhage! darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:34:37 PM 837 Views
Well... Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:43:40 PM 972 Views
SH can't channel thus can't teach Elza anything *NM* darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 10:20:19 PM 332 Views
Yeah, but according to BS, he apparently could "give her the knowledge". *shrug* *NM* Etzel - 15/01/2010 07:16:22 AM 297 Views
that's your interpretation of the quote darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:58:30 PM 718 Views
This and the others quotes suggest that only SH and Elza were involved *NM* Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:51:24 AM 277 Views
As I said that's certainly one of of interpreting the quotes darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 03:46:55 PM 662 Views
The question is... Etzel - 16/01/2010 03:59:24 PM 677 Views
Re: The question is... darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:02:55 PM 666 Views
Yeah, as I said elsewhere, would be a nice question for BS, if there was another Forsaken. *NM* Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:08:05 PM 743 Views
I bet you anything he'd giva a big fat RAFO to that darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:08:58 PM 669 Views
BS spoke quite openly about this scene, though Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:16:09 PM 708 Views
always worth a try, but wasn't he asked to be less open recently? darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:31:54 PM 667 Views
Shaidar Haran can't channel. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/01/2010 09:34:51 PM 1052 Views
I know... Etzel - 14/01/2010 09:45:15 PM 891 Views
I agree with you, for a related but slightly different reason ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 09:58:28 PM 986 Views
That doesn't prove anything... fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 10:07:46 PM 919 Views
It proves enough for me ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 10:26:28 PM 826 Views
Re: That doesn't prove anything... Sidious - 15/01/2010 11:03:05 AM 634 Views
not really darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:29:25 PM 665 Views
I don't understand your theory Sidious - 16/01/2010 05:08:03 PM 639 Views
It's very simple darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 06:17:36 PM 631 Views
So in other words Sidious - 17/01/2010 06:31:58 PM 758 Views
no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct darius_sedai - 17/01/2010 06:43:41 PM 650 Views
Re: no I'd continue to insist that something disproved was correct Sidious - 18/01/2010 04:48:33 AM 679 Views
I'm talking about implanting knowledge into someone elses head darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 05:37:32 AM 669 Views
Here's Brandon's one answer Sidious - 18/01/2010 05:20:20 PM 711 Views
But... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 05:48:54 PM 669 Views
Exactly my point darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 06:24:25 PM 688 Views
But by this logic... Etzel - 18/01/2010 06:50:43 PM 630 Views
Yes... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 07:00:40 PM 681 Views
While you are right... Etzel - 18/01/2010 08:44:19 PM 673 Views
as we've discussed in another thread darius_sedai - 18/01/2010 09:08:56 PM 1073 Views
I mean... Etzel - 19/01/2010 02:21:39 PM 673 Views
Weren't they specifically called Weaves that haven't been seen since the AoL? darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 05:26:38 PM 715 Views
"Elza had been given knowledge of several rarely known weaves" is the quote. Etzel - 19/01/2010 06:14:22 PM 636 Views
Well if they were secret Ajah weaves someone would have recognized them *NM* darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 06:21:19 PM 300 Views
Maybe secret BA weaves... Etzel - 19/01/2010 06:37:42 PM 891 Views
Possible since she was the only BA in the area darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 06:40:38 PM 912 Views
See, I think there's reason for her presence to be kept secret... fionwe1987 - 18/01/2010 09:10:43 PM 745 Views
I have a hard time... Etzel - 19/01/2010 02:17:52 PM 734 Views
I agree with you Sidious - 19/01/2010 04:45:59 PM 677 Views
and you may very well be correct darius_sedai - 19/01/2010 05:39:02 PM 887 Views
Yet Rand/LTT tells us only a few chapters later darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 10:27:57 PM 744 Views
Anything is possible ... Shishka - 14/01/2010 10:54:46 PM 751 Views
who knows darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 11:21:43 PM 714 Views
It's not all that convoluted, though ... Shishka - 15/01/2010 03:26:01 PM 622 Views
Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 05:57:10 PM 813 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end Shishka - 15/01/2010 06:25:32 PM 695 Views
Re: Cyndane/Moggy/Graendal it all amounts to the same in the end darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 06:44:26 PM 652 Views
Good point! Etzel - 15/01/2010 07:19:00 AM 742 Views
Re: Good point! Shishka - 15/01/2010 05:30:12 PM 629 Views
I agree Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:50:09 AM 615 Views
what doesn't make sense about this to me darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 06:04:45 PM 697 Views
Re: what doesn't make sense about this to me Shishka - 15/01/2010 06:29:59 PM 707 Views
this makes my head hurt ... or maybe all that red wine I drank last night is doing that darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 07:04:23 PM 680 Views
damn double posting darius_sedai - 15/01/2010 07:04:56 PM 630 Views
As it is often the case... Etzel - 16/01/2010 09:30:56 AM 733 Views
go re-read my statements and quit putting words in my mouth please. darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 03:59:52 PM 689 Views
Well... Etzel - 16/01/2010 04:14:28 PM 582 Views
as I said it's also possible that SH has new abilities darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:33:30 PM 633 Views
Re: I think Graendal was involved on some level in this part of the story RugbyPlayingAshaman - 14/01/2010 09:30:53 PM 738 Views
Uhhh? fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 09:13:13 PM 917 Views
One point darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 09:20:09 PM 810 Views
Re: One point Oberonus - 14/01/2010 09:32:00 PM 739 Views
Elza truly believes that... fionwe1987 - 14/01/2010 09:38:35 PM 748 Views
Elza "found a reason to follow the Compulsion" darius_sedai - 14/01/2010 11:23:33 PM 801 Views
So, it came from her, and would not go when the Compulsion was removed. Cannoli - 15/01/2010 05:56:32 AM 727 Views
fair enough darius_sedai - 16/01/2010 04:34:05 PM 774 Views
Not quite rAndy aL - 14/01/2010 09:38:45 PM 748 Views
But that could mean that they were to start the LB between Rand and the Great Lord immediately *NM* Voscaia Sedai - 16/01/2010 01:04:32 PM 299 Views
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