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Such a resolution could have been a minor plot point like settling Tear or Cairhien Cannoli Send a noteboard - 11/02/2010 11:53:41 PM

Hey, I'm not saying that the Tower has been doing much good lately, just that it has the potential to do good by the end of the series, acting in harmony with the BT and providing a place for female channellers to share and build knowledge.

Which means nothing for the immediate crisis of the Last Battle. And in addition, this argument relies on a fallacious assumption - that without the Tower, female channelers would not have a place to build and share their knowledge. In fact, by seizing a monopoly and rigorously enforcing that monopoly over female channeling, they have allowed the art to stagnate and their skills to wither. That is why most of the advance in channeling in the serieshave come from outside the Tower or from non-traditional/rebellious Tower personnel. The few things that standard Aes Sedai have managed (such as the male-detecting weave demonstrated in KoD) have come about in response to competition from other channeling influences. The Tower's existence then could be said to have done the opposite. Everyone got along fine with the Black Tower while the Tower was too busy to fuss over it. Now that their attention can be turned to the outside world, we have the first real occasion of trouble arising.

That's why I brought up the other organisations - with the exception of the Kin, none of the others have the same influence as the Tower. It's also important to note that while roughly 1/3 of the AS haven't taken a side in the rebellion, most of that 1/3 is independent, not sworn to Rand, and just about all of them want to see the Tower whole again (which is only natural - the organisation gives them more power). The Kin, while indeed useful (no debate that their help was needed), are not able to take the place of the WT (lack of leadership, as you said).

BUT, how useful IS that leadership anymore? The Borderlanders are seeking their own rapproachment with the Dragon Reborn, and he or his sworn vassals or close friends rule everything outside of Seanchan. That leadership is more or less irrelevant.

The White Tower provides structure and law to female channellers, and ensures they are afforded respect.

Part of the problem. The world needs to fall into line behind a male channeler now, and that respect that female channelers have come to assume is their due has interfered with their cooperation with Rand. Here's something to think about - without the Tower coming back together, or if it collapsed into a disastrous round of bloody internecine war, there would be a leadership vaccuum for that neutral 1/3 of the Tower, with Rand in the best position to fill it, through the powerful or respected Aes Sedai already aligned with him.

The division destroyed that (at least in part), but if we want to see a happy 4th Age after TG, then I think we'll see the Tower reunified.

I remain unconvinced that this is a given, but even if we stipulate it, it is hardly an urgent matter that needs to be resolved before making any contribution to Rand or the cause of the Light.

Rand certainly won't play the benevolent dictator role forever; I think that Randland history spoke for the ability of the Tower to generally maintain peace (Gray and Blue ajah's especially). The Red will be reshaped and will begin working with Men, not against them (we've seen this start to happen already).

Without the Tower's aid or interference, I might add.

Of course, it's your right as a reader to say that you don't particularly care as to how this resolution comes about (and I'd agree that it's been drawn-out at some points), but ultimately I think there does need to be resolution. Yes, it could happen off-screen, but so could many of the events in WoT. Gawyn's story, Elayne's story, anything with the Children of the Light, the Shaido could have been destroyed in Cairhien rather than scattered by Sammael (saving Perrin, and the reader, heaps of time). You could even argue that the only PoVs we really need is Rand and those directly around him.

I just don't see why the Tower issue has to be elevated to some crucial piece, rather than a sidebar like the others. It is treated like the number two story, second only to Rand's mission.

Cannoli
"Sometimes unhinged, sometimes unfair, always entertaining"
- The Crownless

“Tolerance is the virtue of the man without convictions.” GK Chesteron
Deus Vult!

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So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Cannoli - 07/02/2010 04:41:58 AM 2166 Views

The Tower will likely have some sort of "badass army" moment at the end... or, they'd BETTER beetnemesis - 07/02/2010 06:46:51 AM 923 Views

Re: The Tower will likely have some sort of "badass army" moment at the end... or, they'd BETTER lyringlas - 08/02/2010 05:43:52 PM 769 Views

I think the breaking of the tower was.... brett014 - 07/02/2010 07:55:48 AM 982 Views

Nice idea, that does seem to make sense in hindsight. Lord Haart - 07/02/2010 06:18:35 PM 772 Views

Yes, but that isn't the point. Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:14:32 AM 893 Views

Re: Yes, but that isn't the point. brett014 - 08/02/2010 04:40:52 AM 871 Views

YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:55:46 AM 797 Views

Re:

YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? brett014 - 08/02/2010 02:43:48 PM 887 Views

Re:

YES!! The SPLIT is important. So why is ENDING the split such a necessary goal? Cannoli - 10/02/2010 09:49:59 PM 855 Views

Re: the wise ones. Lord Haart - 13/02/2010 10:21:55 AM 725 Views

They're not the biggest clan... fionwe1987 - 13/02/2010 02:20:38 PM 809 Views

Thank you Cannoli - 15/02/2010 01:24:05 PM 890 Views

No problem. *NM* fionwe1987 - 15/02/2010 09:05:11 PM 334 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Lord Haart - 07/02/2010 06:14:31 PM 958 Views

Re: The point was that Rand needed the division. Watcher - 07/02/2010 08:34:10 PM 862 Views

small disagreement darius_sedai - 07/02/2010 08:42:07 PM 790 Views

Re: small disagreement Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:37:03 AM 730 Views

Egwene and Siuan have noted that there are plenty of the new Novices darius_sedai - 15/02/2010 04:22:35 PM 809 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:34:52 AM 973 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? Lord Haart - 08/02/2010 06:56:01 AM 806 Views

Such a resolution could have been a minor plot point like settling Tear or Cairhien Cannoli - 11/02/2010 11:53:41 PM 877 Views

Re: Such a resolution could have been a minor plot point like settling Tear or Cairhien Lord Haart - 13/02/2010 10:45:06 AM 939 Views

Re: So what was the point of the White Tower struggle? fairfax - 07/02/2010 10:42:27 PM 779 Views

These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. Cannoli - 08/02/2010 04:50:11 AM 965 Views

Re: These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. fairfax - 08/02/2010 05:47:36 AM 896 Views

Re: These are reasons why the SPLIT is necessary. I was not questioning that. orius - 13/02/2010 09:33:04 AM 701 Views

For that matter, what is the point of Andor? fionwe1987 - 08/02/2010 06:08:32 AM 838 Views

Re: For that matter, what is the point of Andor? brett014 - 08/02/2010 03:38:54 PM 810 Views

Especially true if Lord Haart - 08/02/2010 07:16:04 PM 728 Views

But Tar Valon is critical too. fionwe1987 - 08/02/2010 07:41:43 PM 787 Views

Really? Rurouni_Kenshin - 10/02/2010 05:30:02 AM 715 Views

Three women in a boat... fionwe1987 - 10/02/2010 09:12:41 PM 764 Views

Nothing is ever given as a location for that boat that I recall. Cannoli - 11/02/2010 11:54:39 PM 717 Views

So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. Cannoli - 10/02/2010 10:13:56 PM 861 Views

Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. fionwe1987 - 12/02/2010 12:43:19 AM 878 Views

In this, I agree with Fionwe. Lord Haart - 13/02/2010 10:31:07 AM 709 Views

Re: So what? This is more or less true, but it has zero relevance to the issue of the Tower. Cannoli - 15/02/2010 02:23:57 PM 893 Views

Some good points, but I still disagree. Lord Haart - 15/02/2010 06:30:50 PM 767 Views

fionwe1987 - 15/02/2010 10:08:48 PM 849 Views

my thoughts Yunalesca - 09/02/2010 12:58:30 PM 979 Views

Belief and order give strength. Gher - 10/02/2010 11:20:01 PM 796 Views

To pad the last few books in order to make Egwene the Amyrlin. RugbyPlayingAshaman - 17/02/2010 05:25:22 PM 756 Views

I can't say I agree with the use of the term "padding". Lord Haart - 17/02/2010 06:07:25 PM 730 Views

Re: I can't say I agree with the use of the term "padding". RugbyPlayingAshaman - 22/02/2010 11:05:44 PM 789 Views

To unite the Tower under competent leadership, of course. JasonD - 23/02/2010 04:55:02 AM 1234 Views

Does a main plotline HAVE to help defeat the DO? car'a'aman - 26/02/2010 04:11:30 PM 928 Views

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<quote id="80471">
<quote>Hey, I'm not saying that the Tower has been doing much good lately, just that it has the potential to do good by the end of the series, acting in harmony with the BT and providing a place for female channellers to share and build knowledge.</quote> Which means nothing for the immediate crisis of the Last Battle.  And in addition, this argument relies on a fallacious assumption - that without the Tower, female channelers would not have a place to build and share their knowledge.  In fact, by seizing a monopoly and rigorously enforcing that monopoly over female channeling, they have allowed the art to stagnate and their skills to wither.  That is why most of the advance in channeling in the serieshave come from outside the Tower or from non-traditional/rebellious Tower personnel.  The few things that standard Aes Sedai have managed (such as the male-detecting weave demonstrated in KoD) have come about in response to competition from other channeling influences.  The Tower's existence then could be said to have done the opposite.  Everyone got along fine with the Black Tower while the Tower was too busy to fuss over it.  Now that their attention can be turned to the outside world, we have the first real occasion of trouble arising.

<quote>That's why I brought up the other organisations - with the exception of the Kin, none of the others have the same influence as the Tower.  It's also important to note that while roughly 1/3 of the AS haven't taken a side in the rebellion, most of that 1/3 is independent, not sworn to Rand, and just about all of them want to see the Tower whole again (which is only natural - the organisation gives them more power).  The Kin, while indeed useful (no debate that their help was needed), are not able to take the place of the WT (lack of leadership, as you said).</quote> BUT, how useful IS that leadership anymore?  The Borderlanders are seeking their own rapproachment with the Dragon Reborn, and he or his sworn vassals or close friends rule everything outside of Seanchan.  That leadership is more or less irrelevant.

<quote>The White Tower provides structure and law to female channellers, and ensures they are afforded respect.</quote> Part of the problem.  The world needs to fall into line behind a male channeler now, and that respect that female channelers have come to assume is their due has interfered with their cooperation with Rand.  Here's something to think about - without the Tower coming back together, or if it collapsed into a disastrous round of bloody internecine war, there would be a leadership vaccuum for that neutral 1/3 of the Tower, with Rand in the best position to fill it, through the powerful or respected Aes Sedai already aligned with him.

<quote>  The division destroyed that (at least in part), but if we want to see a happy 4th Age after TG, then I think we'll see the Tower reunified. </quote> I remain unconvinced that this is a given, but even if we stipulate it, it is hardly an urgent matter that needs to be resolved before making any contribution to Rand or the cause of the Light.

<quote> Rand certainly won't play the benevolent dictator role forever; I think that Randland history spoke for the ability of the Tower to generally maintain peace (Gray and Blue ajah's especially).  The Red will be reshaped and will begin working with Men, not against them (we've seen this start to happen already).</quote> Without the Tower's aid or interference, I might add.

<quote>Of course, it's your right as a reader to say that you don't particularly care as to how this resolution comes about (and I'd agree that it's been drawn-out at some points), but ultimately I think there <i>does</i> need to be resolution.  Yes, it could happen off-screen, but so could many of the events in WoT.  Gawyn's story, Elayne's story, anything with the Children of the Light, the Shaido could have been destroyed in Cairhien rather than scattered by Sammael (saving Perrin, and the reader, heaps of time).  You could even argue that the only PoVs we really need is Rand and those directly around him.</quote>

I just don't see why the Tower issue has to be elevated to some crucial piece, rather than a sidebar like the others.  It is treated like the number two story, second only to Rand's mission.
</quote>

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