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A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present Larry Send a noteboard - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM
The planet was a key factor to the story and the power of deserts is what helped inspire the story but that doesn't mean the story was about deserts. Now I didn't read the entire 47 page interview so if there is some place there where he says it was about deserts please let me know. That would be a like saying Star Trek is about space ships because the ship is so important to the story. The story is about the people on the ship.


It's about the relationships between humans and the planetary environments. Herbert made it quite clear not just in that interview but throughout the first three novels at least that he was interested in the structures that affect things such as the development of religious, political, and social systems. Those are parts of the branch of ecology called human ecology.

Ecology played a major role in the story but I wouldn't call it a theme because there is no ecological message in the story, on the other hand there are messages about politics, religion and power.


Don't have to have a directly-stated "message" for there to be a theme; since politics, religion and power fall under the umbrella of (human) ecology in most definitions, it's hard to see what your complaint is, unless it's just a semantic quibbling.

In a 1980 interview with Omni Herbert said

"Enormous problems arise when human mistakes are made on the grand scale available to a superhero... Heroes are painful, superheroes are a catastrophe. The mistakes of superheroes involve too many of us in disaster." [1]

Also:

"I had this theory that superheroes were disastrous for humans, that even if you postulated an infallible hero, the things this hero set in motion fell eventually into the hands of fallible mortals. What better way to destroy a civilization, society or a race than to set people into the wild oscillations which follow their turning over their critical judgment and decision-making faculties to a superhero?"


Here's a set of definitions of ecology that places that Herbert comment in a better context:

e·col·o·gy (?-k?l'?-j?)
n. pl. e·col·o·gies

1.

1.

The science of the relationships between organisms and their environments. Also called bionomics.
2.

The relationship between organisms and their environment.
2.

The branch of sociology that is concerned with studying the relationships between human groups and their physical and social environments. Also called human ecology.

That is a theme


Yes, it is one theme. Another would be how political/social/religious institutions develop and how they are related to their environs and how these institutions shape and are shaped by what is around them. I seem to recall an observation in one of the first three books (one that I've seen echoed in several other places) that it is no surprise that the three dominant monotheistic religions on this planet today developed in steppe or desert-like environments. Several social practices are also affected by the surroundings and ways political power is structured (as Leto II and the Preacher discuss in Children of Dune) is based on practical consequences of physical surroundings.

I just see those causal relationships being part of an ecology, same as I would view modern-day political parties as being part of an ecological system. And those ecological structures and how they affect the narrative history seems to be a theme in the Herbert novels.
Illusions fall like the husk of a fruit, one after another, and the fruit is experience. - Narrator, Sylvie

Je suis méchant.
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Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles (series reviews within) - 16/04/2010 04:11:40 AM 2070 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 16/04/2010 06:09:49 PM 1170 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 12:08:06 AM 1372 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 02:33:38 PM 1295 Views
I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 12:13:14 AM 1293 Views
Re: I was using a fairly precise term when I said "ecological" - 18/04/2010 03:34:33 AM 1349 Views
Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 18/04/2010 05:18:07 AM 1151 Views
Re: Please read linked interview...as I call bullshit. Also, why are your walls white? - 19/04/2010 06:15:26 PM 1208 Views
That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 12:12:56 AM 1071 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 21/04/2010 06:33:14 PM 1024 Views
Re: That was most of my issue. - 29/04/2010 11:38:26 PM 1009 Views
Just because something plays a dominate role doesn't make it a theme - 21/04/2010 02:09:42 PM 1157 Views
A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 21/04/2010 11:21:38 PM 1086 Views
Re: A theme is merely a dominant strain in a story; there can be more than one theme present - 22/04/2010 04:58:01 AM 1057 Views
Good points - 22/04/2010 09:19:45 PM 1118 Views
Re: Good points - 22/04/2010 10:55:21 PM 1058 Views
when you call it human ecology I come much closer to agreeing - 22/04/2010 02:16:58 PM 1067 Views
Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 19/04/2010 07:52:27 PM 1171 Views
Re: Not really sure how Larry's definition is archaic. - 20/04/2010 07:04:40 PM 1043 Views
You're not using "archaic" correctly - 20/04/2010 10:07:31 PM 1033 Views
Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 01:46:50 AM 947 Views
doesn't that regulate the point down to interesting trivia? - 21/04/2010 02:36:38 PM 1088 Views
Re: Your patronizing manner aside, that's not "archaic" at all. - 21/04/2010 06:23:24 PM 1184 Views
Funny the things people focus on - 21/04/2010 11:24:59 PM 1054 Views
Re: Funny the things people focus on - 23/04/2010 05:28:54 PM 1050 Views
People who see this as an ecological book are missing the point of the book - 16/04/2010 06:28:40 PM 1555 Views
Books can have more than one theme. Great books almost always do. *NM* - 16/04/2010 07:15:11 PM 518 Views
I agree with that I just never really the ecological theme to Dune - 16/04/2010 10:12:26 PM 1239 Views
Ecology goes more than one way - 17/04/2010 12:12:45 AM 1178 Views
There are several points to the book/series - 17/04/2010 12:11:38 AM 1271 Views
Everyone get something different from a book - 19/04/2010 07:01:51 PM 1445 Views
I believe those themes become more pronounced later in the series - 20/04/2010 10:09:36 PM 1197 Views
I remember having hated every single character of this book. Some random thoughts - 17/04/2010 05:08:25 PM 1371 Views
I hope you got to Darwi Odrade - 21/04/2010 03:44:27 PM 1078 Views
Re: Frank Herbert, Dune - 17/04/2010 08:05:16 PM 1652 Views
I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 17/04/2010 10:22:27 PM 1456 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 18/04/2010 04:38:10 AM 1412 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 19/04/2010 04:04:43 AM 1317 Views
Re: I guess we'll have a few disagreements here, Dom - 22/04/2010 04:31:26 AM 1078 Views
I thought all of Dune had begun as a serial in a SF magazine. *NM* - 22/04/2010 01:58:22 PM 465 Views
And Dune Messiah as well was serialized at first, in Galaxy *NM* - 22/04/2010 09:31:54 PM 471 Views
Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 19/04/2010 08:42:18 AM 1430 Views
Re: Dune Messiah (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 21/04/2010 03:33:46 PM 1063 Views
I didn't see that in Alia - 21/04/2010 11:27:22 PM 993 Views
One of my favorite series! - 21/04/2010 03:30:57 PM 988 Views
I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 21/04/2010 11:29:50 PM 909 Views
Re: I didn't "miss it" as much as I chose to deemphasize it - 22/04/2010 04:02:26 PM 1022 Views
His style doesn't appeal to me as much, unfortunately - 22/04/2010 09:17:21 PM 943 Views
You might want to track down his short stories one day... - 23/04/2010 02:06:09 PM 1131 Views
Children of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 22/04/2010 06:47:04 AM 1115 Views
See...I think I made a mistake in my reading of Dune - 22/04/2010 07:26:28 AM 1087 Views
Depends - 22/04/2010 08:01:39 AM 990 Views
Re: Depends - 22/04/2010 11:12:15 PM 1365 Views
read something else - 23/04/2010 07:49:34 PM 980 Views
LA Times article on Dune (4/18/2010) - 23/04/2010 10:59:00 AM 929 Views
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Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 28/04/2010 06:02:54 AM 958 Views
Re: Heretics of Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 29/04/2010 03:26:28 PM 1040 Views
I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 29/04/2010 09:44:07 PM 974 Views
Re: I read the wiki synopses of those two books - 10/05/2010 04:10:49 AM 1344 Views
Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 30/04/2010 02:31:10 PM 1148 Views
Re: Chapterhouse: Dune (2001 initial read; 2010 re-read) - 10/05/2010 01:24:33 AM 1190 Views

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