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All Tolkien-haters are morons. fionwe1987 Send a noteboard - 29/07/2010 03:30:27 AM
Firstly, I completely agree that there should be no sacred cows and Tolkien can be criticized as much as any author. (Ah! You see, I didn't mean what I said on the topic title.)

That said, Paul Smith's real point seems to be about the way "fans" react to anti-Tolkien criticism. He points to the thread on MJH in Westeros, as well as your post about Borges on Tolkien. He fails to read the umpteen threads where Tolkien is criticized, and no one is crying murder.

Case in point, there's a thread on "Black and White vs. shades of Grey", which talks about morality in fantasy. Tolkien has come in for some sharp criticism there, while others have shown appreciation for his work.

What's the difference between the reaction to these criticisms and the anger with which most boards have reacted to the essays of Richard Morgan, MJH, Moorcock, etc.?

The answer is fairly easy. Just look at the titles of these essays:

Richard Morgan: The Real Fantastic Stuff.

Micheal Moorcock: Epic Pooh.

M. John Harrison: The clomping foot of nerdism.

These authors have not only criticized Tolkien's work (Which they have a perfect right to do), but done so in a way that is bound to cause a reaction. There's this sense of bitterness that comes through, and they go way beyond just raising objective points against the novels.

Look at Richard Morgan:

Well, I guess it’s called fantasy for a reason.
I only wonder why on earth anyone (adult) would want to read something like that.
And I’ve written a fantasy novel for all those adults who wouldn’t.
Hope you like it.


What is a reader to glean from this? What's the point of insulting the taste of people who read and enjoy Tolkien? What's the point of discussing world-building in fantasy in tones of abject horror and making doomsday predictions?

I've seen time and again that merely disliking Tolkien is not enough. Many a high-profile critic will go the extra step, go on a rampage, try to rip the novel to shreds.

To me, these histrionics seem designed to inflame arguments. Surely these guys know that writing in those terms is bound to attract the attention of knee-jerk Tolkien apologists? Why not stick to the point?

Since they fail to do so, I've never felt there's any need to defend them. I suspect they're getting exactly what they wanted in these long threads on various discussion boards.

EDIT: Which brings us back to the title of my post. I'm taking a leaf from their book.
This message last edited by fionwe1987 on 29/07/2010 at 03:31:08 AM
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Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy - 28/07/2010 10:02:39 PM 1600 Views
Nonsense, at least in part - 28/07/2010 10:19:19 PM 1168 Views
I know there is a polite difference of opinion here - 28/07/2010 10:40:42 PM 979 Views
So we should judge the Iliad against modren fantasy novels? - 29/07/2010 12:04:32 PM 996 Views
i agree, and furthermore... - 29/07/2010 08:46:07 PM 1074 Views
Re: I know there is a polite difference of opinion here - 29/07/2010 08:44:24 PM 1000 Views
Mno - 30/07/2010 09:07:18 AM 1081 Views
Have to agree. - 28/07/2010 11:38:37 PM 1065 Views
It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. - 29/07/2010 09:44:53 AM 885 Views
*cough* Twilight *cough* - 29/07/2010 10:15:13 AM 923 Views
I was gonna mention that one too. - 29/07/2010 10:35:17 AM 997 Views
Mmm. I read an interesting article actually... - 29/07/2010 08:24:04 PM 815 Views
That's a fair point, I guess... - 29/07/2010 09:18:13 PM 1028 Views
It's hardly tacit. I'm glad I've never read the things. - 30/07/2010 09:38:33 AM 1014 Views
Fair enough. - 30/07/2010 10:03:07 AM 1018 Views
Also: the writing is crap. - 29/07/2010 01:04:12 PM 965 Views
but plenty of us hate it after reading *NM* - 29/07/2010 08:24:35 PM 427 Views
How much do you have to read to form an opinion? - 29/07/2010 12:23:28 PM 973 Views
To the end - 29/07/2010 12:59:25 PM 848 Views
my reading time is too scarce to think that way - 29/07/2010 01:21:26 PM 1053 Views
I agree, but HP is a good example of something you should keep reading - 29/07/2010 08:27:20 PM 1016 Views
and I will - 29/07/2010 09:13:03 PM 751 Views
that's fair enough then - 29/07/2010 10:43:57 PM 817 Views
so I hear - 29/07/2010 11:13:09 PM 783 Views
Re: To the end - 29/07/2010 08:49:06 PM 892 Views
Re: To the end - 29/07/2010 10:34:44 PM 808 Views
Re: How much do you have to read to form an opinion? - 29/07/2010 01:49:21 PM 999 Views
The books mature as Harry does. You should really give it another shot *NM* - 29/07/2010 03:00:37 PM 514 Views
He doesn't want to, so why should he? It's not like you or he is losing anything now - 29/07/2010 06:15:58 PM 838 Views
It is a case of the "someone is wrong on the internet" thing, only much older - 29/07/2010 06:27:07 PM 801 Views
well you have not failed completely - 29/07/2010 06:50:15 PM 794 Views
Re: well you have not failed completely - 29/07/2010 06:53:38 PM 836 Views
one quick question - 29/07/2010 07:38:00 PM 885 Views
Re: one quick question - 29/07/2010 07:42:27 PM 917 Views
well I am not a big enough hypocrite to look down on verbosity - 29/07/2010 08:30:56 PM 834 Views
I have a new essay I want you to read - 29/07/2010 07:44:40 PM 943 Views
Re: I have a new essay I want you to read - 29/07/2010 10:42:05 PM 910 Views
how many books do I have to read to get to the grown up books? - 29/07/2010 06:42:37 PM 828 Views
Book 3 is the beginning of the adult ones, imo. - 29/07/2010 06:44:07 PM 915 Views
Agreed, although, - 29/07/2010 06:54:14 PM 884 Views
They're all "light reading" for adults, geared towards YA readers. - 29/07/2010 08:29:01 PM 795 Views
Re: It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. - 29/07/2010 08:45:58 PM 936 Views
it's not supposed to be on par with adult fantasy. - 29/07/2010 08:49:16 PM 917 Views
I'd argue it's better than Jordan and others from a literary standpoint. - 29/07/2010 09:14:07 PM 870 Views
I have always thought Jordan had some interesting themes but they were often ignored... - 29/07/2010 09:27:12 PM 1012 Views
lol. it's hard to fail with such low preliminary standards *NM* - 29/07/2010 10:46:07 PM 453 Views
good points, i bow to your wisdom - 29/07/2010 10:45:29 PM 803 Views
Oh, agreed. - 30/07/2010 09:05:17 AM 943 Views
Incidentall - 28/07/2010 10:39:52 PM 912 Views
Ha! - 28/07/2010 10:41:41 PM 1035 Views
Re: Ha! - 28/07/2010 10:45:38 PM 915 Views
Ah - 28/07/2010 10:49:22 PM 985 Views
I agree Tolkien should not be a sacred cow or put on a pedestal overmuch. - 28/07/2010 11:10:37 PM 992 Views
I can see your points there - 28/07/2010 11:18:59 PM 895 Views
I grow weary of people refusing to view LotR in context. - 28/07/2010 11:14:07 PM 936 Views
all art forms have sacred cows - 29/07/2010 01:38:26 AM 1006 Views
Yeah, it was the line about women waiting at home while their men went to war that made me laugh. - 29/07/2010 06:44:34 PM 896 Views
women deserve black lung too!! - 29/07/2010 08:35:17 PM 787 Views
nah the smart ones do like my grandmother did - 29/07/2010 09:15:14 PM 865 Views
All Tolkien-haters are morons. - 29/07/2010 03:30:27 AM 1152 Views
Disappointing. - 29/07/2010 04:41:34 AM 957 Views
Re: Disappointing. - 29/07/2010 09:19:25 AM 879 Views
Probably in the sense... - 29/07/2010 02:57:47 PM 851 Views
Perhaps more of 'a complication' to good discussion. - 29/07/2010 08:28:59 PM 798 Views
agreed. *NM* - 29/07/2010 08:32:36 PM 435 Views
I think you are ignoring the key fact that the Silmarillion was never published by Tolkien. - 30/07/2010 01:48:14 PM 1203 Views
The Silmarillion was actually one of Tolkien's first works - 30/07/2010 06:12:31 PM 1278 Views
No it wasn't. - 30/07/2010 06:37:19 PM 931 Views
Re: Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy - 29/07/2010 08:42:04 PM 952 Views
I find the Tolkien lovers to be obnoxious in their never ending masturbatory praise of his works. - 30/07/2010 06:09:42 AM 957 Views
This. *NM* - 30/07/2010 07:43:24 PM 1041 Views

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