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That's a fair point, I guess... Legolas Send a noteboard - 29/07/2010 09:18:13 PM
I don't remember much of it (my fatal flaw in these conversations :P) but the jist was that, yes, these other women are all "Strong" in their relationships...

but BEFORE they were strong, they were weak (physically or otherwise) until they were "Saved" by a male vampire. So the basic idea was that these women were only portrayed as strong after they'd been saved by their men and given their place...by men.

But considering that these "Savings" other than Bella's took place off-screen and get little attention, I don't think it's a particularly strong point.
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Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy Larry - 28/07/2010 10:02:39 PM 1877 Views
Nonsense, at least in part Camilla - 28/07/2010 10:19:19 PM 1459 Views
I know there is a polite difference of opinion here Larry - 28/07/2010 10:40:42 PM 1253 Views
So we should judge the Iliad against modren fantasy novels? random thoughts - 29/07/2010 12:04:32 PM 1273 Views
i agree, and furthermore... LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:46:07 PM 1361 Views
Re: I know there is a polite difference of opinion here dacole - 29/07/2010 08:44:24 PM 1317 Views
Mno Camilla - 30/07/2010 09:07:18 AM 1366 Views
Have to agree. Seriana Sedai - 28/07/2010 11:38:37 PM 1360 Views
It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. Tim - 29/07/2010 09:44:53 AM 1152 Views
*cough* Twilight *cough* Ghavrel - 29/07/2010 10:15:13 AM 1232 Views
I was gonna mention that one too. Legolas - 29/07/2010 10:35:17 AM 1312 Views
Mmm. I read an interesting article actually... LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:24:04 PM 1102 Views
That's a fair point, I guess... Legolas - 29/07/2010 09:18:13 PM 1324 Views
mmm, except it's relevant to Bella too. LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:43:03 PM 1196 Views
That's my point, it's pretty much only relevant to Bella - only there is it shown prominently. *NM* Legolas - 29/07/2010 10:59:54 PM 562 Views
Of course, since she's the main character, it matters rather a lot, yes? *NM* Ghavrel - 30/07/2010 09:39:07 AM 551 Views
It's hardly tacit. I'm glad I've never read the things. Ghavrel - 30/07/2010 09:38:33 AM 1314 Views
Fair enough. Legolas - 30/07/2010 10:03:07 AM 1357 Views
Also: the writing is crap. Rebekah - 29/07/2010 01:04:12 PM 1246 Views
but plenty of us hate it after reading *NM* LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:24:35 PM 534 Views
How much do you have to read to form an opinion? random thoughts - 29/07/2010 12:23:28 PM 1253 Views
To the end Camilla - 29/07/2010 12:59:25 PM 1152 Views
my reading time is too scarce to think that way random thoughts - 29/07/2010 01:21:26 PM 1314 Views
I agree, but HP is a good example of something you should keep reading LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:27:20 PM 1310 Views
and I will random thoughts - 29/07/2010 09:13:03 PM 1034 Views
that's fair enough then LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:43:57 PM 1096 Views
so I hear random thoughts - 29/07/2010 11:13:09 PM 1061 Views
Re: To the end dacole - 29/07/2010 08:49:06 PM 1181 Views
Re: To the end Camilla - 29/07/2010 10:34:44 PM 1108 Views
Re: How much do you have to read to form an opinion? Legolas - 29/07/2010 01:49:21 PM 1318 Views
The books mature as Harry does. You should really give it another shot *NM* Dark Knight - 29/07/2010 03:00:37 PM 632 Views
He doesn't want to, so why should he? It's not like you or he is losing anything now Lordling - 29/07/2010 06:15:58 PM 1121 Views
It is a case of the "someone is wrong on the internet" thing, only much older Camilla - 29/07/2010 06:27:07 PM 1083 Views
well you have not failed completely random thoughts - 29/07/2010 06:50:15 PM 1085 Views
Re: well you have not failed completely Camilla - 29/07/2010 06:53:38 PM 1127 Views
one quick question random thoughts - 29/07/2010 07:38:00 PM 1156 Views
Re: one quick question Camilla - 29/07/2010 07:42:27 PM 1191 Views
well I am not a big enough hypocrite to look down on verbosity random thoughts - 29/07/2010 08:30:56 PM 1089 Views
I have a new essay I want you to read Larry - 29/07/2010 07:44:40 PM 1223 Views
Re: I have a new essay I want you to read Camilla - 29/07/2010 10:42:05 PM 1179 Views
how many books do I have to read to get to the grown up books? random thoughts - 29/07/2010 06:42:37 PM 1087 Views
Book 3 is the beginning of the adult ones, imo. Rebekah - 29/07/2010 06:44:07 PM 1189 Views
Agreed, although, Camilla - 29/07/2010 06:54:14 PM 1157 Views
None of them are "geared towards grown ups" - it's still a YA series. Legolas - 29/07/2010 07:03:24 PM 1102 Views
They're all "light reading" for adults, geared towards YA readers. LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:29:01 PM 1099 Views
Re: It seemed to be that way with Harry Potter just when after it had started to get big. dacole - 29/07/2010 08:45:58 PM 1222 Views
it's not supposed to be on par with adult fantasy. LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:49:16 PM 1200 Views
I'd argue it's better than Jordan and others from a literary standpoint. Rebekah - 29/07/2010 09:14:07 PM 1144 Views
I have always thought Jordan had some interesting themes but they were often ignored... random thoughts - 29/07/2010 09:27:12 PM 1314 Views
lol. it's hard to fail with such low preliminary standards *NM* LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:46:07 PM 573 Views
good points, i bow to your wisdom LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 10:45:29 PM 1096 Views
Oh, agreed. Camilla - 30/07/2010 09:05:17 AM 1225 Views
Incidentall Camilla - 28/07/2010 10:39:52 PM 1199 Views
Ha! Larry - 28/07/2010 10:41:41 PM 1335 Views
Re: Ha! Camilla - 28/07/2010 10:45:38 PM 1196 Views
Ah Larry - 28/07/2010 10:49:22 PM 1234 Views
I agree Tolkien should not be a sacred cow or put on a pedestal overmuch. Legolas - 28/07/2010 11:10:37 PM 1289 Views
I can see your points there Larry - 28/07/2010 11:18:59 PM 1228 Views
I completely agree that there should be no sacred cows, and that applies to Tolkien. Tom - 28/07/2010 11:13:39 PM 1214 Views
I grow weary of people refusing to view LotR in context. Ghavrel - 28/07/2010 11:14:07 PM 1227 Views
all art forms have sacred cows random thoughts - 29/07/2010 01:38:26 AM 1286 Views
Yeah, it was the line about women waiting at home while their men went to war that made me laugh. Gher - 29/07/2010 06:44:34 PM 1162 Views
women deserve black lung too!! LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:35:17 PM 1069 Views
nah the smart ones do like my grandmother did random thoughts - 29/07/2010 09:15:14 PM 1147 Views
All Tolkien-haters are morons. fionwe1987 - 29/07/2010 03:30:27 AM 1461 Views
Disappointing. Werthead - 29/07/2010 04:41:34 AM 1241 Views
Re: Disappointing. Camilla - 29/07/2010 09:19:25 AM 1220 Views
Probably in the sense... Jacob - 29/07/2010 02:57:47 PM 1101 Views
Perhaps more of 'a complication' to good discussion. Werthead - 29/07/2010 08:28:59 PM 1073 Views
agreed. *NM* LadyLorraine - 29/07/2010 08:32:36 PM 548 Views
I think you are ignoring the key fact that the Silmarillion was never published by Tolkien. Tom - 30/07/2010 01:48:14 PM 1471 Views
The Silmarillion was actually one of Tolkien's first works lyringlas - 30/07/2010 06:12:31 PM 1582 Views
No it wasn't. Tom - 30/07/2010 06:37:19 PM 1266 Views
Re: Tolkien as a sacred cow of fantasy dacole - 29/07/2010 08:42:04 PM 1264 Views
I find the Tolkien lovers to be obnoxious in their never ending masturbatory praise of his works. everynametaken - 30/07/2010 06:09:42 AM 1266 Views
This. *NM* Dan - 30/07/2010 07:43:24 PM 1337 Views
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